A biography forum

We want to attract new people on CDN, but right now I feel like we lack way to handle them when they first arrive. For a new member the biography forum was the perfect way to start. A member would present their character, answer question IC and OOC and be greeted by people. It provides a kiddie pool where you get to RP your character, make yourself known to the community, iron the kinks. And it allows us to have an idea about what the characters are supposed to be, not just "that Quarian dude who started posting, I guess".
It also provided a first easy roleplay.

Now it may seem redundant with the biography part of the profile but I don't think it is. That part could be more used as quick reminder of who's that dude and/or a more detailed explanation of who he is. And again, the dialog in the biography is sorely lacked I think. I see a lot of new name without any idea who they are. It'll get worse if we're successful in our marketing campaign.

Also it serves as a first line for unacceptable concepts. Why have a newbie post a dozen times with his character because we don't know where he's going with it if we can correct him in his introduction thread?

So what do you guys think? Maybe a subforum in the IC board, if Valiant allows it?

I think this is a wonderful idea. I did notice the glaring lack of the old bio subforum when we moved over to the new site and I think that you kind of miss out on a good 'welcome' moment for new guys when you don't have that there.

I just realized (thanks Talonz!) that my own introduction was a pretty good example. When I posted my bio I was confused about the CDN timeline. It was those so very long last minutes of the reaper war but I thought we were already post-war because the news and comments were set then, so I posted as such. People explained my mistake, Taleeze said to Bintar that he was disgusting and occ greeted me, Niamh sent me a PM with all the info for a beginners.

I explained my character, people could see what I was doing wrong and correct it before I actually could start posting mistaken stuff on the main board.

I know there were reasons we did away with the old bio forum. Some of those reasons were good reasons. But I think we've lost more than we've benefited. I have four characters on this new version of CDN and with every one of them the first couple of posts have felt awkward and stilted due to the fact that there is no bio forum and intro threads on the main IC forum tend to get lost in the shuffle.

Furthermore I would also like to note that you could find out interesting things about new characters in bio threads right off the bat. Yes character development is important but there has to be a hook so that we actually care about the character being developed.

At the risk of tooting my own horn; StarryEyedMerc is a decent example of this, she came off as a bloodthirsty totally amoral mercenary during her first few posts, then you found out she was a schizophrenic teenager. I'm not sure how I would have introduced that outside of a bio thread but I think it would have felt (to me anyway) a lot more forced.

yup, was surprised to not find it over here either. Newbie playground is generally a good idea. Of course not every character wants to introduce themselves though.

Anyway, I think maybe it was intended, that an IC post saying "hello, CDN, I registered here and I am thisandthat" was supposed to happen in the IC forum. I can see reason in that, that's where the IC discussion is happening. You just can't expect every character to consider this to be "IC" for her/him/it.

I also guess, a concept presentation is supposed to happen in the VL, as the designated OOC forum. Just nobody seems to do that though. The Bio section in the character description can be made pretty extensive so, you won't fix the "problem" that there are so many empty bios with adding a new forum probably. Those characters will most likely not post there either. So basically, it would be all there, just has to be used.

Also, I didn't receive any replies over at the old board to my own introduction post in the bio forum, so for whatever that's worth.

4eyes said, "Silent approval won't cut it"... well, here's my 0.2 credits

I'm not sure about ooc presentations in the virtual lounge Taleeze, we would lose the "my first ic thread!" thing. A new member can always use the ooc part of his post to say more about his character though.
About the fact that a forum won't have a better visibility than a part of your profile I strongly disagree. Forums have the best visibility, while I could modify my profile right now and nobody would see it. A new member WILL see the biography among the list of forums, and now immediately what it's for.
The biography forum was after all successful enough no?
Also I think it's rude that nobody answered your bio and we shouldn't do that anymore.

The biography forum was a vehicle for exceptionally lazy roleplay - how many actual internet boards have biography forums? Remember that that is what's being simulated, here, and there's nothing stopping anybody from posting "hi lol im new" on the main board if they're determined to experience the CDN hugbox right away.

The example presented above - of a character appearing to be one thing while actually being something else - is a very good reason *not* to have a bio forum, so far as I'm concerned, particularly when your character profile has that exact same functionality.

As a recently-joined writer who hasn't really had an easy time getting a feel for CDN, I think there's definitely a case to be made for 4Eyes' "newbie playground". However, I'm very doubtful that a biography forum would be the best way to go about it, or be worth the already-mentioned cost in lazy roleplaying and verisimilitude.

The problem with setting up some other kind of 'newbie playground' is that it almost immediately creates an 'us and them' atmosphere, even unintentionally. At what point does one 'graduate'? What happens if someone believes they belong in the 'adult' section but everybody there thinks they should spend more time in the 'playground'? And so on.

That's a good point, although I was thinking more in terms of an optional thing than a "newbies must start here" section.

But either way, it's probably an issue for another thread. My original point was that, while I understand where 4Eyes is coming from, I don't really think it's a good argument for bringing back the biography forum.

Lazy roleplay? What does that even mean? It's just a first discussion with a new character. It's like saying an intro scene is lazy narration, it doesn't make sense. It's an introduction, if an introduction is lazy narration then all the books are wrong.
If you mean the bland "welcome to cdn" posts, well it's always better to ask questions to the new character, but a greetings is like saying "hi". It may not be the most original thing in the world, but it's polite and nice. Makes one feel welcome.


The hipster argument? No biography forum because it's too mainstream? There is an equivalent of the virtual lounge on all forums you know?


Well yeah, that's what we call a clueless new member, and we'll have to deal with them no matter why. That's were the motivated member tell him he'll have to do better.
Also did that happen THAT often on the old forum?
Incidentally I find it a little sad that we have a pejorative term for "a place where we're nice with the new players".

As I mentioned even if people read everyone's profile (I don't think they do), there is no dialog with the character there.

What would you go with?


Take it from a new member, the distinction new member versus old member exists no matter what. But what's way worse than that is the other forum members not even knowing who you are! A first conversation in your bio allows you to have an entry point in the community.

Wait did that ever happen? In case it does well concerned member would help the new member overcome their shyness via pms or irc I imagine.

The old biography section wasn't mandatory right?

The big problem with the biography thread is that a lot of people who RP'd there, including myself, fell into the classic writers trap of telling instead of showing details about our characters. It's better to actually show what your character is through interaction on the boards, rather than just one big infodump that will bore your audience to tears.

I do agree with you though in that it can be difficult for new players to introduce themselves on the main page. Primarily because their own introductory threads may get buried under the myriad of other threads that have been posted. At least, from what I can tell.

As for solutions though...The only real solution I can think of is a recommendation: Whenever new players arrive, perhaps take a few minutes of your time to introduce yourselves to them, help them get acquainted and integrated with the site. After all, we are tying to get new blood on board.

Well, these are my two credits anyway.

Actually it's more show, since it's an IC introduction. The player isn't describing all the points of his character (like he would do on the biography part of his profile), he's introducing himself to the community, presenting himself briefly. He's already roleplaying.



You mean by PMs? Niahm used to do that to great effect, I'm still very much grateful. But it's another thing entirely I think.

I'm going to pipe up here and say I agree with Four here.

While I certainly get where you're coming from Abad, I honestly believe the bio forum had some definite advantages. While I agree in principle that it does encourage lazy 'tell not show' RPing, my own experiences with the bio forum were rewarding. It gave me a starting point, a stepping stone into the rest of the board. The Nat in the bio thread isn't the same character she is now-there's a few revision from there, but it was an idea and a way to start. It also allowed me to get in touch with other players without feeling intimidated.

Posting in threads can be intimidating. A bio is a way to make that first step. perhaps not the greatest step, but it's an introduction to the site. It's inviting and since we're driving to have more people, we want to be inviting. It's, as Four said, a way to deal with new players and welcome them into the fold.

And right now we definitely need a way to help people adjust to the site and a way to communicate with new players, some way to make CDN more accessible.

To be honest I'm not sure that's happening right now. You can always help someone move into better role playing and give them useful critiques.

Just my two cents.

Mod Voice:
Keep your arguments civil, please, lest I have to break out the hammer. Remember that this is the Virtual Lounge, not the IC forum.

Non-Mod Voice:

The “CDN hugbox” refers to the idea that players (new and old) must be praised at all times, that new players must be welcomed with open arms regardless of how bad their writing style may be, and that any criticism whatsoever was a violation of the “Don’t Be a Dick” rule of the old forums. It was a major factor involved in the generation of several characters and story arcs that were just plain bad. It was also a factor that spawned several VL rants about basic writing, and is one of the contributing factors for “Don’t Be a Dick’s” removal from the forum rules.

In other words, putting it as civilly as I can, up to about the beginning of ME3 occuring on the board, it did happen that often.


Actually, there is a “wall” function at the bottom of the post that allows people to post on your character’s bio page. It works as your own mini-thread or bulletin board for your character. For example, the PNA Biography page now has references on how to contact the mods for sending in a story. It can also be easily co-opted for character introductions. Take a look!


But again, there is nothing stopping a new person from introducing themselves via the IC forum with an introduction thread of their own. I don’t think this is the best way to introduce yourself, but more on that in a second.

I do think that the issue here is a lack of communication on our part. By “our,” however, I am not talking about the mods; I am talking about every long-time member of CDN. Over time, we as a forum have drastically reduced our ability to communicate. I’m not saying that we don’t talk to one another, but we have decided that it’s no longer our responsibility to listen.

Keep in mind that this forum was built on the idea of a bunch of news articles with people shootin’ the shit with one another about the weird stuff happening across the Mass Effect Galaxy. Under those circumstances, an “introduction” for a character shouldn’t even be necessary; new players should be able to simply walk in on a random thread and whack someone over the head with a well-placed comment. However, as players spend more time becoming author-avatars in alien costume, throwing catchphrases and loaded fanon references at each other instead of talking, that is becoming increasingly difficult to do. We keep the articles flowing, but we don’t comment; we spew ideology but don’t follow up; hell, I write entire episodes’ worth of inflammatory sketch comedy and watch as nobody says anything about it in character.

This is what makes it hard for new players to come in. This is what makes it hard for veterans to stick around. Bringing back the Introduction Thread is not going to fix this.

If you want new blood to come in, talk.

If you want new blood to come in, listen.

If you want new blood to come in, be interesting.

---

Keep in mind that the above was in my non-mod voice. As a mod, I am still weighing benefits, as I expect my fellow mods to be doing.

Ok... Well I can't stress enough that this is not a problem anymore. After that we're the masters of how we greet newcomers. We don't have to tell them that everything they do is awesome, anymore that we have to be jerks about pointing out what they're doing wrong.
On my bio people welcomed me and helpfully pointed out what I was getting wrong. That was good.
On IRC I got talked to with extreme rudeness and even got insulted, sometimes about stuff that people assumed I would do and that I didn't even plan to. That was wrong.

I'm very much familiar with the wall, but it has a visibility closed to nill. Just check your own walls.

Yeah but people don't do it, as you may have noticed. We have a lot of new characters, and we don't even now who they're supposed
to be, or why we should be excited about the stories they're bringing with them. I think it's very sad.

I think we're way past that, because there is so many new and old players. When I first lurked I was always curious, "who's that RememberTheBlitz guy", because there weren't a lot of people then, so each of them were significant just by being there. If we get back to such a state it means that the forum will have dwindled so much it'll be pretty much dying.
There is a reason it's the old members who are against the bio forum : you guys didn't need it.


One of the reasons I would like the bio back is that they're often very fine discussion threads.


As a new player what I want is visibility, a way for me to get my character known to the community, and to iron it. From a new player perspective you have all those intimidating old members, doing their things, not reading your roleplays... In a bio you have older members coming to say hi, acknowledging your existence, and maybe you'll hook a few of them enough that they'll read what you do. That's what a new member is hoping for.

Just adding my two cents to the discussion.

I have to disagree with this. At least on the old boards, bio-posts went along the line:
OP: "Hey all, I'm a salarian and I like basketball even though it's a human sport lol"
A: "Hey OP!"
B: "Welcome to the madhouse"
C: "Oh you like basketball, why is that?"
OP: "Oh it's such a nice sport"

Huge hyperbole, obviously. As opposed to discussion about news we have right here on the new boards, for example this which stirred up a huge argument IC, and was interesting to follow even though my characters didn't have anything to say. If I had had a human character, it would have been easy to just jump in to voice my opinnion no matter how new I am. I think this is pretty close to the "Take Daily News in MEverse, add comment box" -mentality of the old main page (which I didn't frequent after my first few days, to be honest). The Palavi-sports news are good world building, with a less intimidating way to just jump in on the discussion and start posting.

Unfortunately, most biography posts are in the form "Hey, I'm a turian and I like snowboarding and freerunning and I'm a student."* This is telling, not showing.

I don't think we need a bio-forum anymore. Instead, after we get a private message system working properly on this site, it'll be much easier for new players to contact mods or more experienced forum-goers about anything. We could have a sort of "tutor" group, who'd volunteer to show the new players around if they want that, leaving mods to do modding or whatever.

*Yes, my bio-post in a nutshell

My two cents on why the Bio forums aren't coming back:

1) If we take the time to put in a bio subforum, that takes time away from Dippy designing other things we need, such as a PM function. It also adds to the things that the mods need to keep an eye on.

2) We've managed to do without a bio forum for the past two months, and in that time we've had new people come in and introduce themselves just fine. A "hi, my name is X" thread is nothing to be ashamed of, and will lead to discussion on the boards.

3) I personally ignored the bio forum in the last board, and know many others did. I only checked it when a new person started posting, and then only to ensure they weren't breaking any rules. They were the LEAST-visited forums on the entire board. We got rid of them for a reason; they were unnecessary bloat.

4) The moderator team had an extensive discussion on this BEFORE the boards were put back up.

5) Because we said so, end of topic.

Exactly.

Nine times out of ten, “Introduction” threads were simply a place for people to drop off a macro saying “welcome to the forums.” Unless your character was extraordinarily good at getting peoples’ attention (or singularly awful to the point of baiting), that was all the introduction threads ever really amounted to.


Incorrect. In fact, I attempted to make a bio thread with each and every one of my new characters. Dietrich’s only received posts because of a stupid German schtick that I immediately cut out of his personality, and nobody responded to Dwick until a good three days after I had posted as him in the main forum – at which point the thread was simply a rubber stamp of approval.

There is a reason it's the old members who are against the bio forum : we know firsthand that it did not serve its intended purpose.


There is one and only one solution to this: participating in threads. Having a biography thread means nothing if a character doesn't put ten posts into the other forums.

Ok I'm done, I won't start a quote war since it seems pretty much the only to feel it's a really important part of the community life. I honestly feel it's a big loss for us for all the arguments I presented, but thanks to have taken the time to talk about it, and not just say "no we don't".