Why Asari Are The New Quarians

Right, I'm not going to respond to every single person in this thread, but I agree with most of what has been said by the mods and by Mandatory. Stagnation is bad, and we're all guilty of causing it.


I can see somewhat where you're coming from here. Any sort of "hugbox" isn't good for generating better, more entertaining writing. It ends up being a little bit of a circle jerk, not fun for anyone outside your circle to read.


I disagree with this thought, personally, but that's not really a debate for this thread.


Emphasis mine. There are consequences to every action you take. You need to live with them. Do you necessarily need to get into a fight? No. But do more than just slice of life. Conflict is the spice of life. Without it, stories are boring drivel that lead nowhere. Even slice of life can generate conflict. Someone has a deadline to meet at work. Some client is a little grabby. Conflict is the essence of good writing.


Don't think that's not appreciated. I like Celeste as a character. She's interesting, and I want to see more of her. She's a crabby old bat, and that makes her endearing.


Criticism is important and should happen regularly. This is how you improve. However, there are diplomatic ways of giving it. Beating someone over the head with it can cause issues where they don't realize that you're trying to help them, as evidenced in this thread. However, it should also not be surprising if someone chooses not to take your criticism. Or not all of it.

Writing is an evolutionary process. RP is as well.



We need people to step out of their comfort zones in general. Myself included, really.

Maybe it's because I'm not actively encouraging people to tone it down, or it might be a case of Christmas spirit, but I'm not locking this thread yet, because in my idiot heart of hearts I think that we can still salvage this. So take a moment, re-read the above, and

dial it the fuck down.

@Corona : Well being the change you want to see is a good attitude of course, but I still think we can't move forward as writers without healthy, respectful and constructive criticism. Plus it's not like it's one solution or the other, we can do both.

@Alex/Celeste : What you refuse to accept is that the asari players just don't play the same way you do, and they have a right to. The asari roleplay tends to be more subtle and emotional, the dramas are not shootouts as much as interpersonal relationships. The asari are a people that lived in an almost idyllic society that got brutally smashed in what was for them the blink of an eye. They still cling on their ideas and want to keep living by them. This is the story they're telling, and a damn interesting one.
That said they're not above criticism, nobody is. Other people and I told Taleeze myself that I think a bit more challenges would suit their story arcs better. And right now four of the main asari writers have characters freezing their pastel colored asses on an ice planet after barely surviving a crash landing brought by fire from an unknown enemy. That's hardly idyllic wish fulfillment if you ask me.

I don't know if your view of prostitution is the point of the thread, but I'll just mention that it's more than conceivable that in a society where sex working is accepted both in law and culture, and with clear legal boundaries, some prostitutes would be happy in their work. Aprom would have fraked up if he had said or implied that every prostitutes was super happy and dandy and that abuse was unheard of, but he didn't.

And yeah, they are YOUR hoops. I know it's not only you, but how uncomfortable you are with the RP of some other members is definitely not something that is shared by the entire board. Lots of people really like what our asari players are doing, myself included. They are definitely following basic standards or the mods would have stepped in long ago. You just happen not to like their kind of stories, which is ok, but don't try to ruin other people's enjoyment of them. When you don't like food don't throw it off the table, just don't eat it.
Basically you're not going to change they way they play, and you need to make your peace with that. They're not asking you to give up the way you play are they?

Now again you're mixing "ignoring all criticism" and "bending over when someone throws buckets of personal insults in your face". As I mentioned I found the asari players to be opened to criticism. They're not opened to being rudely talked to however, and that's a very normal thing.
You can try it at work if you want. Try to say to a colleague "well, you know I'd do that differently", and try to say to another one "this is the most mind-breakingly stupid fucking thing I ever saw! Please do a favor to everyone on earth and jump from this window! No, wait, you might survive that, go on the roof and then jump! Head first please."
In both case your criticism may be perfectly valid but your colleagues will be entirely justified in seeing you as maniac and a dick in the second occurrence.

About your quote I want to clarify that I meant what Sandman CONSIDERED idiotic, which is why I continued on to say that he may consider something idiotic and act on that belief and be in the wrong. I get how that could have been seen as me insulting his own writing, but it wasn't.
The "nobody likes you" part was absolutely useless and factually wrong however.
Now you're anxious to pass my point as some sort of hippie "let's all love each other" thing. It's not, it's "let's all respect each others like adults thing". I don't need you to like me, I need you not to attack me personally. Again, attacks != criticism.

Well if you're not trying to get them to conform I'm sure you'll be fine with them not following your instructions then? Especially since the way I understand it your solution is "to be better asari, stop playing them as asaris." And no their work isn't "porridge-like drivel", it's good writing that you just happen not to like. By the way I prefer characters like Taleeze, Stardust or Aprom to Celeste. Maybe you have an awesome background for your character, but to me she's just an old woman who's angry all the time and violence prone. Some people find it interesting (see Asharia), I don't very much, but I wouldn't tell you it's bad. It's just not my cup of tea.

I want all of you read to Harrad's comment. No don't just skim over it. Read it. I don't care about how your group is being wronged. Your group is not CDN. And the fact several of you on both sides continue to keep blaming the other side for whatever issues are befalling CDN is the true problem.

Refusing to look at the other side, show a little empathy, and try to figure out why people feel the way they are is the problem. Stop trying to make it about you.

And here is what I see. And have been seeing

People feel they are being unfairly singled out because of how they run their characters. I agree, this is a problem. It has always been a problem. Criticism is good. Criticism does help you to grow.

But if you want people to listen to your criticism you have to go that extra way to deliver it politely and respectfully. Singling members out, harassing them about it, and being an aggressive asshole is not going to get people to listen to you. It is going to push them away and cause them to start ignoring you or even leave altogether.

And everyone should probably look to keeping an eye on your OOC interactions. Because how you act, how you behave out of character. It does affect your interactions IC.

Don't like certain people on CDN? That's cool. No one on this site is going to like everyone. And you are not obligated to. But you are obligated to treat them with respect and courtesy no matter how you feel about them as a person or writer.

People feel that some people aren't engaging in conflict? I Agree this is a problem. Conflict is important. And everyone (throughout the site) is going to have to step up and re-evaluate their writing a little. This doesn't mean 'angst' or 'fighting' or even having to bad mouth your favorite race or participate in an argument about the Terminus. It can be as simple as arguing about stupid cartoons or a perceived nerf in Galaxy of Fantasy to just pondering your meaning and purpose in the galaxy in a RP thread.

All I’d have to say to this has been said by more eloquent people. There is really nothing I can ad. Just repeating won’t help.

Only one thing I’d like to say, my com lines are open and always have been open for anyone.

This is not an "Us versus them" scenario. That is something this entire thread has gone out of it's way
to prevent. This is a scenario where a good portion of the playerbase has come out to support someone that thinks we should work together to improve quality of writing.

Following the rules does not make your writing good, it makes your writing legal.

This is not naming and shaming. CDN isn't a place for established writers with already publishable works under their belt. If it was, I can assure you it'd be an empty wasteland.

Cerberus Daily News is where people go to improve their writing.

And refusing to improve and refusing to at least acknowledge any problems you have in your writing will lead to stagnation.


Consider from where I'm standing. We're somewhat far down the line in the debate and then suddenly you say "Well I don't like your character, so obviously the two of us trying to improve through criticism would be us just trying to assert our own opinions on each other so let's just drop it."

It's childish. There's no other way to say it. It's going right back into the "I play in my corner and you play in yours" argument. If it's not childish, it's certainly complacent, and it denies that there was any problem to begin with, and we (Both all the mods and most of the players who have made statements in this thread) have already established that there is a problem, and have been deciding how we can fix it.

Well I guess I wasn't clear enough, so I'll just lay bare my opinions on the matter :

1) I think criticism is vital.
2) I think it, or any social interaction on the boards or irc, needs to be respectful and polite (I'm not counting IC interactions of course, as long as they're really IC).
3) I think that we must admit that just because we don't like what some people do doesn't mean they're bad writers. Maybe other people enjoy what they do, as it is the case here. No that doesn't mean that we shouldn't express your concerns, it just means that we should accept the fact that maybe they will disagree with us and keep playing the way they like to.

Uh, no. That's not what I said, and you're horrifically misrepresenting my argument to make me look bad. Again. This is a common thing with you, isn't it? I don't care if it's talking or shootouts, what they need is well-done conflict. You're not being 'subtle and emotional' if you have a hilarious and downright offensive portrayal of PTSD and shoehorn war crimes into your backstory to me more edgy.


And that thread is the source of the aforementioned absolutely horrific use of war crimes and PTSD in a backstory, so it's not quite the best piece of evidence to use as backup. This is also the thread in which four people survived a car being blown up by a missile with a broken arm and a concussion between them, and someone set their own broken arm without anesthetic like it wasn't anything.


He's not saying that real-life prostitutes have it easy, no. But what he is saying is that the life of an asari prostitute is wonderful and glamorous, practically a dream job where all you do is hang out with attractive and intelligent people and your life is perfect. That is downright disgusting and it is disrespectful to all the real people who have had their lives ruined by having to work in the sex trade.


Actually, no. They're not my hoops. They are the basic building blocks of fiction that most people are just flagrantly ignoring. And they're an appeal for basic standards of decent writing that are being ignored. And no, my opinion actually is shared by many people. I already said that I worked on this thread for days making revisions. I worked on it with many people, including two mods. Does that sound like just one player's conceit?

And no, that's quite inaccurate. Imagine instead that I'm at a restaurant. There are people sitting at a table nearby who only seem to order porridge over and over and over while the people at my table have more variety. Strange, but I try to ignore it. But more and more people order porridge until the whole rest of the restaurant is completely packed, and the smell of porride is so overpowering that I can't even concentrate on my own meal. Then, from such a high saturation, I'm forced to notice a strange and pervading bad smell that's starting to make me queasy, coming from everyone else's porridge. Now, should I ask them to please for the love of God order something other than the porridge, or just sit quietly because they're entitled to eat what they want?


And again you're trying to paint yourself as some kind of tragic, oppressed minority when really you aren't. Evidently people aren't open to criticism because the opening post of this thread was actually quite constructive in its criticism, and offered plenty of suggestions as to how to improve. It wasn't just 'grrr you all suck I hate you leave' as you appear to be trying very very hard to believe it was.


Mmmmmmno, you're a fairly terrible human being, and I know of few people who can stand your endless self-important patronization. And, you know, were a major cause of a player nearly being driven of the site because he felt like everybody despised him and wanted him gone. That's something people are allowed to not like you for.

And no, evidently we're not respecting each other like adults. Again, you are anxious to pass me off as some old meaniepants who hates you all when my opening post had quite a few non-insulting suggestions of how to improve. Please try actually reading what I write before moving along with that straw figure you've got in the works.


Then the way you understand it is wrong. I'm not asking them to stop playing asari, I'm asking them to be better asari and just better writers. To put some damn conflict and consequences in their stories, to think about what they do and create depth an complexity and talk it over with people outside their circle of other asari. It is demonstrably not good writing, and it is not just me, as I said before I've talked this over with multiple people, mods included, before posting it.

And here you go, doing exactly the thing you're so happy to condemn us for. 'Well your character's just an angry, violent old women so I don't care, I like these other people better.' What is that supposed to mean, exactly? What makes that different from what you've been decrying from me for the past handful of posts?

(And there is a backstory to it, it's called building suspense and intrigue.)

When I said dial it the fuck down, I meant dial it the fuck down. We'll see you after Christmas.

And, I want to be clear: this does not mean that Alex does not have perfectly valid points. But I expect some civility from everyone.

Okay, so I've mulled this all over for a bit, so I'll say my piece.

First of all, this thread? It could be a great thing for this board. There's been a lot of tension bubbling away under th surfae and it needs to be put in the open. But in the end, we all need to be willing to com to the table and actually come to a compromise over the future of this website and how we're actually going to co-exist. Just food for thought while you're flinging insults at each other.

SO to start off, I'm just going to say: everyone involved is responsible for this right now. I personally have contributed to the communication problem. I've had OOC issues, even been offended, and have chosen not to talk to other players about it. I've stayed with my particular group of friends, because that's easier than reaching out to someone I have a problem with.

I admit that. I've been lazy and even a bit bitchy.

That being said? I agree with a lot of what's been said, a lot of it very eloquently, so I'll keep this short.

1, stagnation is our collective fault. How to fix that? Conflict. It doesn't have to be violence. It can be disliking another character yours has to work with. It can be dealing with the aftermath of the war. It can be emotional. Beyond that, we need to contribute to the site. Make story arcs, not just for you and your friends, but for others on the forums. Get people involved. Come up with new things.

2, criticism does need to be accepted to a point. People aren't accepting it, instead seeing it as an attack on their charactrs, when it's not. Not saying you have to do everythig they say, but often people have good points. I've been truly done over on this site before, and it made me a better writer. At the same time we do need to be more civil about it OOC (and I'm talking to everyone here, including myself at times), because people? If you yell insults at each other, no one's listening to what you're actually saying.

3, talk to each other. If you're thinking of doing a storyline involving a potentially sensitive issue, such as mental illness, or somethin you have little experience in, ask around or google it. A lot of information is out there.

A lot of people has been taking a stance on the importance of offering criticism in the thread, but I don't think anyone is on the other side of that issue. I can't think of a single player who would say "criticism? No thanks, i'm just going to do my thing".
What is brought to debate is what is an acceptable way of offering said criticism, and what reaction is appropriate when the person you're offering feedback to doesn't conform to your suggestion.

Poor presentation doesn't necessarily invalidate criticism, is the point.

Absolutely, but it certainly distracts from the issues and put the person you're offering criticism on the defensive, which is highly counter productive. Also it dissuades everyone from asking for feedback.
And that's not just a bunch of people being too sensitive. If I PM anyone here on IRC and open with a solid "what you're doing is shit and here's why", I'm pretty sure I'll get (well deserved) shitstorms after shitstorms. And what I say after "here's why" will often go unheeded, since people tend to focus on the personal attack part.
Furthermore even if I somehow manage to convince a few people that they are indeed doing shit, I'm pretty sure I'll just sap their motivation entirely, possibly motivate them to stop writing altogether.

Okay, I agree with you that presentation does matter. But let's not pretend that the people giving the criticism are just starting off with a 'fuck you'. Or that people are taking any of said criticism on.

Firstly, yes, people need to work on their presentation.

Secondly, let's take this thread for example. Alex's opening post was not rude or offesnive. It had some constructive stuff in there. But people took it as an attack and then the real insults started coming out. If you disagree with someone's criticism, tell them why! If they insult you, you're perfectly entitled to tell them to fuck off, but that doesn't make their criticism any less valid.

Moving on from that, IC interactions should be used to improve your characters as well. If someone expresses disbelief at something your character says, learn from it.

Do you have to 'conform' to criticism? No. My RP group has gotten a lot of feedback about the usage of military slang and acronyms in our threads which make it difficult for people to read it. Have we completely eliminated that? No, because that kinda destroys the point of military sim. But we have taken it on and tried to make it a bit more reader-friendly and we have listened to other criticism.

Or at least that's how I feel, can hardly speak for the others in the group.

My point is that people giving the criticism generally have a point. You don't have to take it all on, but you can listen to their reasons and take some of it on, because in most cases it will improve you as a writer.

Okay, firstly, I know it's the holidays and everyone's busy but this is, pardon my vehemence, fucking shameful.

Foureyes, a_prom, taleeze. You have grievances. You also have an opportunity to talk and air said grievances. You're not exactly doing either.

Right. Okay. Forgive me this is likely going to be a fair bit stream of consciousness and probably unmitigated shite but talking is important. Even if it's not the bestest most shiningest argument ever it needs to be said for my own sake if anything.

Not doing a quote ladder just starting off with this and how I think it represents some of the core problems here.

Except that exact same thing has happened multiple times in this thread. Largely spoken by players with asari mains.

I understand where you (four) are ostensibly coming from I think. You've stated previously in this thread that you think that CDN has a tendency to be a bit of a "Good Old Boys" club where certain writers feel free to dictate terms to other writers regardless of said writers feelings on the subject. You think that it's offensive and hurtful and ultimately damaging to the boards. So what if an asari player wants to talk about their relationship, so what if they have their slice of life things? It's not hurting anybody and some people, yourself included, enjoy it. Plus the people criticizing it are verging into the actively offensive while at the same time dismissing what you're saying.

Okay. I get that.

Here's some things that I want to say, they'll be a little harsh, but they need to be said.

You are part of the problem.

Full stop.

You are not above it, you are not a victim, you are not some outside factor. You are a part of the board and part of the problem, more than most because either intentionally or not you reinforce the segregated mentality. Was Celeste's post vehement? Yeah.

Was it wrong?

Frankly I don't think you seriously asked yourself that question. Seriously sat down and looked at what he said and asked yourself "how might this apply to me?".

Celeste wrote more or less what I was thinking, I just wanted to add one thing: you tend to deal in absolutes. As much as you decry the others for issuing ultimatums and betraying both the letter and spirit of the rules you have yet to actively admit that you've done anything wrong. To sincerely, legitimately say "yeah I've screwed this up". You've made passing references to "oh yeah I've done it too", but you never followed up on them. You never expanded on that. Instead it's all about how oppressed and victimized you and the others are. There is no middle ground, there is no compromise, and thus far you've paid lip service to the idea of discussion without ever really dropping the obfuscation and responding to what someone said.

It's a problem. It's a pretty serious problem. And it's a much bigger problem than certain people being rude in their delivery.

Branching off of that I'd like to state, re: mandatory mostly, that respect is a two way street and that people need to be open to the fact that people won't welcome everything with hugs and kisses and party favors. Some criticism will be scathing. Some ideas will be called bad. The point is the onus is not entirely on board members to preserve each and every person's happiness. That is to say that people do need to take responsibility for the way they feel. Can that be related to and influenced by outside stuff? Yeah. You can be hurt by people tearing your stuff down, by people being unfair or treating you badly; God knows I've been on this board. But it's still fundamentally my hurt and my anger and my issues with said stuff should be divorced from my emotional reaction. Ranting, getting pissy, leaving the board, doesn't help. And that would all be on me. Criticism is similar, sure it can be harsh and even brutal but your intellectual reaction should be divorced from your sense of offense or shame. That's the metric on which it should really be judged. I know it's hard and far from perfect but it's what should be done.

But getting back to what I was saying about respect: as much as people like four have been stridently opposing this lack of respect apparently infesting the boards they themselves have been incredibly disrespectful in the course of their arguments and general behavior. I know it sounds kinda petty but you can't demand something like that, that you aren't even willing to give yourself (generic "you" here).

And finally, to kinda focus things a bit more about the whole asari thing and outline my issues with how they're portrayed as succinctly as I can.

Essentially: there are no consequences for anything they do. Even minor things such as someone disliking them up to major things like STD's, emotional distress, or physical harm. And this is a Bad Thing. It robs stories of any real drive or impetus and action of any real Threat.

To take the example of prostitution and sex workers which bugs me especially (even taking into account a lack of intense stigma among the asari) in that is portrayed as amazingly white washed. Having lots of sex with lots of attractive people without any consequences. Performing in pornographic ventures because it's just so darned fun.

No mention is made of long hours, exhausting work (including technical issues like say, simulating intense enjoyment of sex under hot stage lights in front of an audience and cameras with tons of cosmetics on to sell the image of pleasure), the issues in basically selling your body for entertainment, the effects upon one's self image, complications in sexual relationships and dulling of sexual gratification, STD's and other health issues, the fact that it's a job that you really only do if there's nothing better, effects upon familial relationships, none of that is even so much as acknowledged. It's just Girls Gone Wild 24/7. I'm not saying that a person can't support the industry or even enjoy their work but it's still work. It's still fundamentally a way of paying the bills not really what you'd be doing for fun. And calling that victimization of your character...

It's...kinda offensive really. All around. And it's something that effects the entire board considering that it is now part of how this board is seen and portrayed.

And that's part of the issue here too. It's been said already but it could be said again and probably in all caps with fireworks above it: you are part of this board. That means that you don't write in a vacuum and what you do affects others.

You are correct. There is of course a difference between constructive criticism: telling a person their idea is bad and how to rework it to a more reasonable level (or drop it entirely if it isn't working). And yes, being brutally honest is sometimes necessary. But what I do not like seeing is groups of people ganging up on a writer and telling them (in really hostile tones) what to do. That is not constructive.

And to be perfectly honest the latter has pissed me off immensely and I am not the only writer to feel this way (and I am referring to writers who have been on CDN longer than me and are much better writers than me). It has driven good writers from this community. It has made people less inclined to post or write articles. And yes, it has made people less inclined to ask for criticism because they fear they will be pounced on. Which is a silly and ridiculous fear. But I honestly can't blame them for being hesitant about it. Because no one likes being ganged up on over silly pretend alien stuff.

Which is in part why I welcomed this thread (outside of the petty shit slinging early on. Come the fuck on guys.) not because I feel there is a problem with the asari writers as a whole but with the entire community as a whole that can be solved by talking like reasonable human beings and not retreating to their own personal echochambers, that constantly reinforce negative attitudes and feelings. Because that doesn't help either. And it just furthers the problem.


Agreed. But this goes for everyone in this community. Both in-character and out of character.

I...hrm. I agree with you kinda in the letter but not the spirit. Or maybe just the spirit and not the letter. Or...eeeeeeh.

My issue with this is that it...kinda rubs me the wrong way tbh. I don't entirely disagree just

okay look here's how I'll put it:

There is a mutual responsibility with writers on this board especially re: criticism part of it is not being a bully (that's really when dogpiling gets bad OOC speaking from personal experience and as one of the people whose been hesitant to post or participate as a direct result) and being punitive and controlling and overbearing on the part of people giving criticism but part of it is also on people well

toughening up to be blunt. Accepting that people won't like everything or everyone and working with it. Taking criticism for what it is and honestly I'm kinda iffy on the dogpiling IC thing, I've seen it get shitty and piled on myself, but sometimes I feel like...well if you're going to throw something IC people are allowed to react to it IC. If, for a recent and potent example, someone basically rips off a historical human individual rather than take the thirty seconds to try and devise something new or even flavor it a bit more so it's totally obvious and then staunchly defends it, what are we not allowed to say it's bad IC? Not allowed to write characters expressing disbelief or confusion?

There's...dunno kinda an element of risk in posting. You acknowledge that not everyone will like this but you go ahead anyway. And going back to what I said if a lot of people IC have a negative reaction that you didn't intend maybe it's worth examining things IC and OOC to see why. Maybe it's unjustified. Maybe there's a good reason for it. Maybe it's both. Point is it can be constructive if you try and make it constructive.

I think that's why what you're saying doesn't sit well with me. It places the burden entirely on one party without acknowledging what opportunities and choices and decisions the other person has. It's more of the "oh these people are being mean and that's why the board's dying" stuff and as someone whose been kinda slammed with that previously I don't exactly care for it.

Okay and this. This I do not like. It's dismissive and kinda "I want people to talk but I want them to talk my way". Was it pretty? Nah. But it did raise some damn good points and I don't think those deserve to be dismissed just because you didn't care for the medium.

It's kinda emblematic of one of my issues thus far with what you've been saying, that criticism is basically invalidated if one doesn't like the source.

In my opinion? No. Because in part, it tends to lean waaay too close to the fourth-wall for my taste (and your character is essentially winking at the monitor and smiling giving a thumbs up) and also because, if you want to deliver actual criticism I feel it always works better in an actual out of character environment so that mistakes like that can be resolved faster without three pages of no actual discussion that kills the thread.

Moderators exist for a reason. And if someone is flagrantly breaking the rules (unknowingly or knowingly) its honestly best to just tell them about it. It saves a lot of headache and frustration for everyone.

There is indeed a risk to posting on any forum. Doubly so on a collaborative writing forum that requires you to deal with a variety of writers of different skill levels. And yes, as someone who has gotten her own fair shake of negative reactions from her characters (generally its I don't know how to respond to that Pariah) I try to help them come up with an argument. Or I examine my own writing and see how to avoid that particular fault again.


If it sounds like I'm targeting one party in particular. I'm not and I apologize. It is honestly a problem with many people on both sides and elsewhere.


There are good points by almost every poster in this thread and none of them deserve to be dismissed. But when both sides are throwing pointless personal attacks and ad-hominems it is bad form that makes people less inclined to listen and debate with you.


Hmm, not what I was trying to make tbh. My point was that criticism works in a variety of ways. Harsh, gentle, whatever. But it needs to be delivered in a way that doesn't constitute as actual harassment. Which, I believe, both sides have failed incredibly hard at doing. Instead hiding behind IC jabs (which just fueled the tension) ganging up on people over it, or being incredibly passive aggressive about it. None of these really solve the issue and just make people angrier and less inclined to listen.


This is how I feel.

Hrm.

Okay.

I think I see kinda where we're arguing at cross purposes.

I don't generally mind IC stuff, arguing, debating, criticism, or counterpoints as long as it doesn't drag IC drama in. Which, to be honest, I don't think it does in quite the same way or manner as you think it does. The dislike or arguments themselves are thought up OOC yeah but the arguments themselves have an IC cast and are oriented IC. To kinda use my thought process as an example, "...that idea's kinda dumb" > "alright why's it dumb" > "alright why would sandy think it was dumb and what would he say and what parts would he take particular issue with". And, at the risk of sounding thick, I don't get exactly what's wrong with that. To go back to what I said earlier it was made a part of the board and if it didn't violate the rules exactly then...I dunno why would my reply? Their stuff's part of the board now, part of the board cannon and so is my reply. And frankly I think that works for everything short of stuff that requires outright mod involvement and I think it's actually

well

beneficial.

The vast majority of how I've developed and improved (or, at least I sometimes like to think I have) on CDN has been as a result of struggling with responses to IC things. Someone gives reasons why a plot or weapon or explanation is stupid. Okay. Now I have to think of why it wouldn't be and sell that point. So when I see people kinda going "But it's mean and pointless" kinda...makes me this weird cross between exasperated, frustrated, disappointed, and Lin.

And I know everyone learns and develops differently but it's a good opportunity that people are just kinda throwing in the dirt imo by going "I'm taking my ball and going home". Which is setting aside how infuriating and disheartening it is trying to play with someone who has just given up for whatever reason.

To go back to the exchange earlier I feel like this same metric kinda applies OOC too. It's essentially what they and we make of it and I'd rather focus on the good that came out of it (because there was good) than how it might not have been exactly what I wanted.

Plus, again, I'd take passion and vehemence over apathy and lip service any day of the week personally.

So yeah, I can get why you would not like them, the whole mess, they're often cutting and harsh and what have you but I think that they're kinda like...tough love almost. And speaking personally again I'd respect someone who I disagreed with but who still put in the effort and kept going more than someone who threw a hissy fit and basically withdrew IC because "no they're totally wrong".

Mind you I'm not saying that every critic is right, the people making the snide IC comments can be just as full of bullshit me included, or that people can't be offended or hurt or discouraged by criticism because, again, God knows I've been before. I'm not even saying that people have to always listen only give it some thought and not toss the metaphorical baby out with the bathwater.

Also two more things:

I think that IC and OOC, while they cross paths at points inevitably, are different animals in how you have to handle them and that, at the end of the day, it's important to take into account the spirit and context in which something was said.

I think that, frankly, it's hard to trust certain people on the forums. With talking, with giving them criticism, with even engaging. That's no excuse for not doing it exactly or at least, not trying, but at certain points it kinda feels like

well where's the point where you just kinda give a person up as a lost cause? When they insult you OOC or tear you down in PMs or twist your stuff around rather than actually talk? When's it time to kinda cut your losses as it were and draw the distinction between people you disagree with and people who are actively toxic? And it's hard, it's hard to be frank with people like that because you're already prepared for disappointment and frustrated and you probably don't exactly like them anyway.

I don't know it's just...hard is what I'm saying basically (shockingly eloquent here). Talking with certain people on the forums. To make yourself take a step back and go "okay, look I know a part of me, a pretty big part of me, is offended that you're getting just as much time and attention and respect as me when you've been an asshat to me and hurtful but it's good for us to at least try to talk" if that makes any sense?