Why Asari Are The New Quarians

Yeah, I think so too.


Eh, I'm not really concerned if someone posts something that's dumb and doesn't break the rules. Post about it. I have never seen a forum on the internet that didn't have its share of dumb or bad posts. Provided people aren't actually seriously angry about the fake extranet.

My issue mainly revolves around doing it to a flagrant rule breaker (like say referencing a 20th century pop artist in a post or whatever) it will, in most cases when a mod notices it. Be removed or asked to be removed. But when its been dragged on for several posts it makes it harder to ignore or change into something else because its now all over the thread.


Agreed. The way I've improved Kari from boring quarian exile to how she is now is from interacting with most of the board and I also agree that it is very infuriating for people to either ignore your posts with a boring one-liner or acting weird about it OOC. Even I've had to deal with it sometimes.

But I also (at least I want to think this because I really hope its not intentional) that a huge part of this has been because of a huge break down in communication and trust between certain writers. Neither wants to talk because they think the other hates them and that any attempt at communication will just end in more drama.


I agree that you shouldn't be isolating yourself. But when a person feels (whether they really are or not) being singled out constantly and being belittled. It, I dunno, drains your passion to write. Even in-character. There's a reason I tend to swap out characters or arguments (and why I don't really pounce on quarian or geth writers constantly anymore) because it gives a bit of breathing room.


Its wrong. But to be honest, I can't fault someone for withdrawing for a bit so they can cool down. When ideas are being stomped on constantly, when every thread becomes less about debating or arguing and just throwing insults even while its in-character. It, as I said, gets tiring. Doubly so when you think the person doing it is doing it out of actual malice. Which goes back to writers losing trust in one another because of the refusal to talk.


Honestly, reading over this thread again it seems like this is what most people are trying to say in a thousand different ways.


Trust, along with a sense of humor, are the two things you honestly need most on CDN. If you don't trust a member, feel you can't talk to them, you should be looking for ways to communicate with them. Either by making a thread in the VL (which has helped CDN a lot over the years) or trying to get a mod to mediate.

I like to think that no one in this situation is a lost cause. And I like to think that no one is being intentionally toxic. Its really optimistic of me to say that I know but I feel like I know both parties well enough that most of you aren't intentionally being dicks to each other just because you hate/dislike/whatever the other guy and that a huge part of this is just a misunderstanding that never got resolved properly until it exploded into this.


It makes sense. And it probably goes both ways on this thing.

Short post, just throwing this out there before it slips my mind totally and I'll write up the essay form reply tomorrow when I sort through my thoughts instead of, you know, word vomiting all over the page again.

Okay I'll give you that. I'll give you that four, taleeze, a_prom and the others feel that way about me (and they probably do). It's frustrating and kinda galling and tastes super freaking bitter but okay, I'll give you that. It'd be kinda stupid not to tbh.

But the thing is, I'm here. I'm talking and laying down how I think and feel. Other people are too, they're putting in the time and effort.

Even before the holidays they weren't.

I'd like to apologize for derailing this conversation, but I think it needs to be said that retconning on this board is nearly impossible, unless that trait has been changed in the last year, which is plausible but unlikely. That said, it makes appropriate reaction to criticism even more difficult, since most people are invariably committed to what they post their characters as saying and/or doing, and the consequences thereof. That puts a much higher burden of foresight on every player here, for every post they publish. Say for instance, if the sex trade players starting taking their characters' career choices more seriously (and whether or not they should is debatable, as while the issue is very serious, this is still a game), then they would have to scramble to find some means to explain why they've been playing their characters as having such an ignorant, rose-colored depiction of their business for all this time. Especially those individuals playing characters with these trades on worlds like Ilium, where business is literally cut-throat, or on those like Omega, where all the fears of being a hooker stereotype in any movie, tv show, or other game with hookers comes into play. You know, fears like abusive pimps/madams, STDs, serial killers, illicit drugs and all the wonders that people do to each other with those, the fact that many prostitutes most likely stay that way because they keep very little of what they earn, and so on.

Now, if you were to look at the characters on this board and their players objectively, then you would note that many of them, while intelligent, are playing with a rather fantastical outlook on the world of Mass Effect. Some of them have been doing so for a long time, and were they to attempt to meet the demands on a practical outlook being made here, they would have to overhaul everything they've done up until the point where they agree to do so. Or to post something that reveals their character to have been ignorant, perhaps willfully so, of their life situation and those of people with similar career paths in less polished worlds. To that end, I would have to ask you what would their motivation be for subjecting themselves and their works to something like that? For the sake of more realism in a space fantasy setting that already has a marginally better than tenuous grasp on that? Looking at it that way, I can certainly see where there would be some reluctance. I mean, considering that all of our characters currently live in a world where all of civilization only just barely scraped by the threat of annihilation, I don't think that we really need to make it as dark a setting as it would be were reality to be applied.

That said, it would be nice if there was a compromise on future posts. That is to say, I think everybody should find some kind of meeting ground regarding what problems it is acceptable for their characters to have without losing the elements of fun and fantasy this world presents. There obviously shouldn't be a deficiency of such, as no one would take a problem-free character seriously (or they would just assume they're insane/delusional), but those present should at least be spread in a bell curve along the spectrum from "life change threatening" to "life threatening". Obviously, there is a wider range of conflicts a person can experience, but anything before the former point in that range is really more of an inconvenience, which lacks merit. That said, I don't believe that these problems should happen with any great frequency (post-near-apocalypse notwithstanding), however, I do believe that they should happen often enough to be noticed by observers and taken very seriously when they do happen. And this is speaking as somebody who is absolutely appalled (and I seldom feel that emotion) at the use of a three-way as a cure for PTSD. I've had that disorder since I was a child, and I know from experience that they don't, and even if I didn't, the idea is positively ludicrous and offensive. It is true that advancements in the medical science of the Mass Effect are nothing short of phenomenal, and that doctors in our world are finding ways to treat disorders in medically unorthodox manners, but treatments are fleeting and have to be repeated, not to mention that if sex solved as many problems as it created it wouldn't be such a popular ban among various traditions...I'm digressing.

Anyway, my basic point is that this is kind of a meeting point between a game that has no standards for winning and an online library of at least semi-cooperative fanfiction, and I would really appreciate it if everybody here remembered that.

My only 'grievance' is that Celeste's opening post was based on innate assumptions about the portrayal of asari, and of prostitution, that in both cases I believe are flawed. I said as much, politely I hope, with a brief statement of the reasons why. Since then I haven't seen anything I feel it would be worthwhile for me to reply to - it's self-evident that writers need critical feedback, and for the rest, I don't think I have a contribution to make that others haven't already made. I'm not entirely sure this post is a good idea, but I'm going to make it anyway, since I'm frustrated that this thread (except for the bit about criticism) even exists in the form it does.

Since it keeps coming up in one form or another, I'm going to use your post as a framework to try to refute the idea that I'm writing an implausibly idealised presentation of the sex industry. I'm not doing so specifically out of a motive to argue with you; I feel that, since I have been the primary creator of sex industry content on CDN, I shouldn't remain silent at this point.

I don't recall ever giving a physical description of any of Daia's clients; the two that come to mind as having actually appeared in RP (briefly in both cases) were a turian and a hanar, and I don't even know how I'd go about differentiating members of either species based on looks (I'm sure Daia can, but as I said, she's never said anything to that effect). The only narrowing of her customer base that I think I've ever made is to say that she can afford to be 'selective', given her professional standing - don't know whether I've said so or not, but that basically boils down to 'not tolerating jerks'.

I'm not sure if you're referring to prostitution or pornography here. If the former, unfavourably long hours are not the norm. If the latter, Daia's specifically said multiple times that she remains at the 'supporting cast' level with the porn studio she's involved with because she doesn't want to make the time commitment being a star would entail. (Which incidentally is far less per film than any non-porn actor.)

I've had Daia discuss those exact points on several occasions, most recently in the Misconceptions thread.

There was a series of threads dealing with exactly this, catalysed by Ana's injury, but specifically discussing her work as a factor more than once during it. Also while she was single I recall having her mention more than once that her work was an obstacle to dating, and it's been part of her history for a long time that she and a man who would've been her husband (bondmate, whatever) separated instead because he couldn't reconcile himself to her work.

I've had her mention the paramount importance of STD prevention, and all the measures taken to guard against them, literally every time the subject has come up (and if I remember right on at least one occasion when it hadn't, in a discussion about omni-tools, with medical scans being the only time she uses hers to its full capabilities). Promoting healthy practices (along with working against all the sex industry ills you list as never having been mentioned at all) is one of the activities of the IISS, Illium's sex worker 'union', which gets mentioned every time they are; likewise the Sapphire Alliance, the Citadel equivalent, which has been a part of every Bliss festival since I came up with the idea. There's a 'slice of life' thread right now involving, among other things, creating a safe sex media campaign.

This isn't something I've dealt with, simply because (in trying to keep Daia's interstellar travel to a minimum - I already have her travel more than I think would be strictly plausible, just to permit RP threads to happen) she's only once been shown to interact with her mother. I think her mother accepting her choice of career is acceptable, given the perception of prostitution I think is plausible among asari.

You haven't mentioned being assaulted but Vahruun did, so I'll include it here for thoroughness's sake. Daia's mentioned the need for sex workers to have self-defence skills more than once, and the fact that she can defend herself well enough to at least attempt escape from an attacker likewise. It's also been a part of Daia's backstory for some time that a colleague of hers was attacked on Omega in circumstances so severe (I haven't elaborated on what happened, only the severity) that Daia felt angry enough that she believed she might have attempted to kill the attacker had he been present when she found out about it. I haven't made such an attack part of her backstory, because many long-term prostitutes are never attacked sexually or otherwise as a result of their job.

I've grouped all those together, because in legal brothels, and especially for premium escorts, they're far less harmful than you seem to be making out. I'm basing this on conversations I've had - in two cases at some length, and specifically about Daia as a character - with actual working prostitutes. All of those (especially the last) are part of a perception of prostitution that many prostitutes find offensive. They can and do happen - and if you're motivated by knowledge of any personal experience of such, I'm deeply sorry - but in Sydney they are not the norm, and I feel comfortable given the various factors which have already been done to death in transposing that working environment over to the pricey end of Nos Astra.

For the record I'm quite sure Daia has spoken and posted in passing about all of them being part of the industry in some places (the IISS having a 'long, uphill struggle' to make a difference on Omega is a recurring point), but they are not part of her personal experience.

This is why I've been reluctant to post in this thread more. Everything (possibly except family relations, can't specifically ever recall mentioning it) you've raised has been acknowledged, and in some cases developed quite a lot as part of Daia's extended 'world'. You just apparently haven't read it. I don't have any problem with that in itself - I try to keep up with most IC threads, but I don't read RPs I'm not involved with simply because I don't have the time (and also, while RPing has become a much bigger activity for me than I ever expected, Daia was created as and remains primarily a handy vessel with which to 'explore' the Mass Effect verse via IC conversation). I understand perfectly that a lot of people aren't going to be interested in reading the commonplace activities that are her RP exploits. But if I criticised IC!Sandman for having his wealth without there being any justification for how he came by it or retains it, simply because I haven't read the relevant part of your backstory for him, you'd be perfectly within your rights to consider that uninformed, and not feel like you had to take a serious look at your character as a result. That's not being closed to criticism, that's recognising when the criticism doesn't apply.

And since this has taken up an entire evening when I could have been writing Daia instead (and I'm already lagging behind due to delays imposed by a Lego Super Star Destroyer yesterday), this will probably be my last such post here on the matter (I have one other, unrelated, thing I'd like to discuss, but I'm running out of time now so I'll do that tomorrow). If anyone wants to discuss Daia, or prostitution, or asari, further, my inbox is open - I'll listen, and respond as best I can, but a writer has to be able to defend their work without being labelled 'unwilling to accept criticism', and if I feel I'm content with a point someone raises as a problem, I'll defend it, politely I hope, rather than abandon it.

I have only now discovered that there has been activity in this thread again, I haven’t checked during the holidays but still, I feel like I should say something here although I much more prefer to stay out of public personal discussions like these.


Sandman, I did. Read my post, it's all there, all my points. They don't get better or worse from repeating and I don’t have a way with words as you do in a language that’s not my own.
I have a different way to approach such things and this is also where part of our differences seem to originate from if you ask me. Also, since this thread is (to me) Vol. 2 of the other VL thread about Hugbox, read what I have written there.

I don't hate you or hold a grudge against you personally or think you're board cancer. I don’t know you personally or, same as in a_prom’s case don’t even know all the backstory there is to IC Sandman. But that’s nothing exclusive, I don’t know a lot of details about a lot of players or characters.

I just can’t do anything worthwhile with the way you play Sandman, the way you like to debate and dissect. It’s nothing that gets me going or makes me become productive, he is just the guy a person like Taleeze would ignore since he always comes at her with the same shit in a tone she does not appreciate.

As for my reservation to post here, generally I do not like this form of public personal debate or "arena". I am more of a chat-in-private person. Also, there's often a point where expressions fail me since this is not my first language, there is the possibility of you getting me wrong on a personal matter and I maybe miss a lot of the meta meaning of what you say sometimes. It actually seems to be a special problem I am facing with your posts sometimes that sure does not help in separating IC and OOC often enough, your posts often confuse me a bit. Funny though, I don't have these issues with Archmagus, he works very well for me.

But maybe we should have a chat sometime, if you like. As I said earlier, and in this case I will repeat this: my inbox is open, I am in chat often enough. Feel invited to talk to me but please don’t expect me to enter the arena with you.


Vahruun, I have to reply to this

If you seriously think this is what I want to do or how I see the setup of characters or what I think of PTSD, you are completely wrong. Also, I have contact with another member of this board who suffers from PTSD and I haven’t gotten such feedback from that person. Such a claim as you make one would in my opinion better be handled between two people than dragged out in the open.

There is hardly a fitting reply to what you have written other than an sincere apology by me and to assure you it's not as simple as you see it. But I have already and will further on tune down the display of PTSD in that character anyway since it seems to cause offense. We are talking about an RP – /game/ here and such things are seriously not worth it for me.

Also, as far as I am concerned I have said what is on my mind and others have done so as well. I don’t feel there’s anything for me to contribute to make things better or to fix the problems some have with how RP is happening on this site other than I will try to approach the people directly most of the time. All of you can always approach me directly too.

Okay. I know I haven't been posting and have gone through a long hiatus, and even now that I'm technically back on the boards, I'm still mostly a lurker right now. However, I mentioned something that I observed about this issue that I don't think has been mentioned and I was encouraged to make a post about it.

I'm not going to focus on the prostitution/stripper debate. I am far from an expert on the issue, and I'll probably look stupid for trying. The criticism issue has been repeated ad nausium multiple times so I can't really add anything new. And I am probably part of the problem of only RPing with specific people problem, I have had that bad habit since the Old Forum because I hate putting myself out there and asking people to RP because I hate rejection, especially if I'm not sure how my usual group feels about that other player and vice versa. I am not targeting anyone specifically with this because a lot of people are guilty of this habit here because it's so easy to do with the forum format. I probably have done it myself on several occasions. It is an issue that goes beyond the asari players and is one that can happen to anyone and I've seen it happen to every writer.

A major part of the complaint is that the asari characters have a lack of conflict in their personal lives. A bit of a thread binge tells me there is a reason for the outside observer to see no conflict, but for the writer to feel there is conflict going on in the character's life. It's a problem that happens in all forms of media and a very common complaint when it happens.

What is happening is that there is a lot of telling, but not enough showing to back it up. We're getting a lot of informed arguments, flaws, emotional problems and other such things that could cause conflict in an everyday slice of life style story. People are casually mentioning conflicts that their characters are getting into, like a charity they are backing for or a campaign to raise awareness of an issue. All these passing mentions would add conflict to their personal life, and yet do not get mentioned again, let alone become the subject of an RP.

While I don't think this is the source of all the frustration, I do think it's played a major role. Character's mother doesn't agree with a life choice? Do a solo showing the fight. Problems at work? Solo showing the problems. And in both cases, you could at least have the character rant about it when going out to eat with a friend (which to me is somewhere between showing and telling). There are so many missed opportunities happening, and it is kind of distressing to the outside observer.

Again, I don't think this is the only issue, but I do feel that it adds to the feeling that there is no real conflict in the slice of life threads and personal lives of these characters. And the solution to this problem is one that I see as beneficial, more RP! All you need to do is have some more RPs, as a group or as a solo, showing these little details that you mention in a thread that would add conflict to the character's life.

Not the final solution, but it should help at least a little bit...

Conflict does not a story make. The obsession by some that conflict is needed for a (good) story shows a lack of creativity. While it is true that contemporary western mainstream stories are based on conflict, and the resolution of it, it is by far not the only way to have a compelling story. As an example of a compelling story without conflict we just have to look at Hemingway's famous six word story;

"For sale: baby shoes, never worn."

No conflict, but still compelling. Now don't get me wrong; I am not saying that nobody should have conflict. I am saying.that there is more to storytelling than just conflict resolution, in short I'm saying that you have more tools that you can use than just the old conflict/resolve thing we know and (mostly) love.

I just want to add one more thing to this thread because it concerns something a lot of writers have fallen into (including myself)

If you want to argue and have people not ignore your character. Put effort into your post and actually contribute to the thread. Want to argue? Make points that are actually visible so people can argue them.

Don't just throw out a bunch of lame insults. That's terrible posting. If there's no actual thing to discuss in a thread besides people throwing insults, obsessing over the minutia of the argument instead of the real point, unfunny image macros, cheerleading another poster/character (without adding any point of your own) and just responding with nothing at all but a three word response that has nothing in it (ie popcorn) it is going to cause the thread to stop dead because there is no meaningful discussion

It also, to be blunt, makes you boring as hell to read. And you aren't as funny or clever as you think you are when you do it.

This isn't to say every post needs to be an essay and that you need to avoid insults in an argument (mine certainly never will) but if you want discourse. You need to put the effort in it to make it fun or interesting enough for people to want to continue discussing the subject.

I wasn't saying conflict was needed. I was just observing that some of the players that are being accused of having no conflict feel they have plenty, so I skimmed some archives and found that most of the conflict they felt they had was in the form of telling us it existed rather than it happening in front of us.

In short, I meant that if your character is having conflict in their personal life that you normally don't show (ie, not getting along with a parent) why not show it? I don't see a reason not to.

Even without conflict, things need to be shown while telling a story in this format. We're not writing little two line stories here. We're working for weeks, even months, to write what I see as a form of collaborative novels.

What type of plot and conflict in a story you ("you" meaning "everyone") put into your writing is personal preference. But it does not mean it isn't there. I mean, I always saw a conflict of sorts in that little Hemingway story, but that's English class essay subject there, and this isn't exactly the place to write a book report.

Some people assert that plots need conflict in order to be interesting, clearly this is a personal preference. However, something about the slice of life threads seems not to have a plot to a lot of readers. Maybe it's the lack of conflict because that's their personal taste, or maybe it's because they are not seeing a goal being met in the thread at all. Not progress in the characters lives, nothing new, nothing funny, nothing emotionally compelling. I don't know, but the main complaint I seem to hear is "nothing is changing".

Personally, I feel that any change is a form of conflict, even if it's not the type that most people would call conflict. Everything in life changes in some way, and even change that doesn't disrupt your life or really have an effect on it at all can make a day interesting.

Probably not my best post. Mostly train of thought adding an extra two cents to it...

I was not talking about you, as you yourself observed there are people, (not you,) that speak about the lack of conflict. My reply was to them.

Sorry then, my bad. The fact that your post was right after mine made me assume it was a response to my post. Especially since mine did make heavy mention of conflict.

Hell, that's how most of the worst out of character (and in now that I think about it) arguments happen, because it's hard to tell who's talking to who on a forum. When a post is in response to the subject itself or a specific post.

Or when someone reads and responds while half asleep. That happens too..

First of all, it's not an 'obsession'. It's the basic building-blocks of any story. Second of all, we are not Hemingway. Third, that was a self-contained short story. I want you to show me any sort of sustained, continuing story (like, say, RP characters) that can keep going without conflict. If you try and write plotlines with absolutely no conflict or tension you get Full House. I do not need to say any more. Fourth, that story does contain conflict. It's subtextual, but the conflict is that whatever couple used to own the baby shoes are struggling to deal with the loss of their child.

And hey, guess what. This thread is probably the most interesting one on the entire site. Know why? It has conflict.


Wow.

I know exactly the posts you're trying very hard to misrepresent, and that's just offensive. I mean, okay, I can cop to my half of that, sometimes I post like shit. But by essentially saying that Sandy (and yes, that is precisely who you're referring to) is just 'throwing out a bunch of lame insults', that he's the cause for a thread stopping dead, you are doing exactly what I've been calling bullshit on for most of this thread. You think that he's just 'too mean ;~;' so you're trying to attack his character OOC. Which is terrible RP etiquette. I really don't want to talk about pots and kettles, but that is not okay.

You seem to have missed the part where I said this is an issue that affects more than one person on this site and I have even been directly called out for doing it before. Rather recently. It was not directed at a single person and I have no desire to 'attack' someone's character OOC.

So that thread's back... Sorry I'm not going to quote wall, I'll just try to address a few more points, in artistic disorder.

About criticism, I think that brutal honesty is rarely, if ever, necessary. There are leagues between a rant about how an idea is so mind-breakingly stupid that its writer should be taken away by the genetic purity police (whether that rant is IC or OOC), and hugs and kisses and no criticism at all. My recommendation is to keep brutal honesty to players you really feel comfortable with, and that you know can take it.
The problem isn't generally the initial criticism, it's what happens when the person doesn't comply with it. A good example is that one time on IRC where someone asked a question about an idea for an article. Other members said it wasn't a great idea, and debate ensued. Problem is that the writer adapted his idea a little, but still went through with it. The members felt like their criticism was flatly ignored and became increasingly hostile. The same thing that happened with the asari players, people who asked them more conflict feel like they're ignored. So they kept demanding it, with increasing hostility.
What I think about it is that you should always welcome and provide advice, but also accept when the person doesn't follow it. I think sometimes after we said our piece we should just let it happen. If it was a very bad idea it should become apparent soon enough, other people will notice, and the writer will correct and learn. Ganging up on the writer until he gives it up should never be an option (except when it's so bad that the mods will get involved anyway).
Believe it or not I don't mind so much the OP of this thread. I disagree with it and I wish it was less aggressive, but I think the argument itself, if debatable, is worth saying. But I also think that if the asari players decide not to follow its recommendations, everyone should accept it. If you don't like their stories, don't read them. Their play style won't "contaminate" your RPs. And their lack of conflict has no real bearing on the boards. It's not like they can close debate-heavy threads.
Basically say your piece, and then live and let live.

About passing criticism IC, it's a tricky beast. If you criticize something IC you acknowledge it. It becomes to late to change. So if it's really absurd a PM to the writer could give them the chance to correct it in time.
If it's just something that you disagree with but isn't fundamental, debate away.

At no point however should one use IC posts to insult other players. If you're posting to debate a point, great. If you're aiming at showing the other guy what a drooling moron he is, I recommend to step away from the keyboard.

About the prostitution stuff... It's a rather specific issue, but I find it interesting. What is the problem exactly? Do you guys think aprom has shown the prostitution trade as a spot free industry in the whole ME universe? Because as he proved it's really not the case. During the bliss festival with Snow we actually made a point of showing the dark side of the industry (in that case, propositioning duct rats) and Aprom totally played with it.
Or do you honestly think that there is no possible way for a prostitute to have a healthy life and mindset, even in a society where prostitution is well accepted and heavily regulated? In that case well you're free to express that opinion, but I really don't share it. And in canon it's certainly not valid (Sha'ira and her assistants are shown to enjoy their job).

About conflict, I think that our very own medium doesn't always allow for structured stories. In fiction, most of the conflict-less stuff that happens, for example the main characters bonding together, winding down between jobs, happen off camera. Usually we catch only the start of end of it. But here we play the main characters during both sequences. Usually the open threads are those conflict-less times. They are still very important because that's where our characters meet, get to know each other, and bond. It doesn't make for an exciting read, but it prepares for more serious threads later.
For example last year's new year thread is where Michelle and Snow met Laykalar, and the idea to have him join the LTD crew came naturally, something that would not have made sense without that bit of context.
In essence I think we should consider whether there is conflict on the character's whole arc, instead of looking thread by thread. And we need to remember that the nature of conflict differs greatly depending on the tone of stories, and that not everyone likes to write/play/read the same stories we do.


Sure, but for a lot of us it's interesting despite the personal attacks, not thanks to it.

One last point about characters (including mine) who just stopped answering other characters when they were "too mean". First of all it was because ooc the insults felt personal, something I've complained about in the past, and I didn't want to invite more of them, because they annoy me.
IC it made sense too. Michelle's a reasonably adjusted adult with a demanding job, and Bintar's patience was heavily eroded in the events of Lash Mobs. Neither have any logical reasons to keep entertaining the equivalent of youtube trolls.
I'm still all for engaging in normal debate though.

About mending bridges I'm all for it but I do believe that it requires a mediator. Every attempt I made to solve interpersonal issues one on one went terribly, due in no small parts to how amazingly clumsy I am in conflict resolution.
I'm not good at it, but I'm willing to try again anytime.

Strawman argument.

Nobody is Nazis. Seriously, you just invoked Godwin's law to portray legitimate criticisms and complaints about both your OOC behavior and IC writing. Nobody is making thread page long rants on how shit you are. The only personal attack rendered on to you specifically was pointing out that the same behavior that you have complained about(Being bullied and pushed around for your writing style) was the exact same thing you did to another player that nearly drove him off the boards.

And yeah, I agree with that Ad Hominem because it is a legitimate complaint against your quite frankly, extremely poor behavior.

And I am utterly disappointed in where this thread has gone. Some of you have been arguing in circles, not even acknowledging when someone might have a point like you have fucking blinders on. In my opinion, "dialing it the fuck down" has declawed the entire gesture. It's given some of you the ability to filibuster the argument until everyone goes home out of complete frustration.

I would have been more accepting of the results if it caused a change that I didn't agree with. At least then some change would have occurred. It would have meant that we wouldn't all avoid each other like an awkward encounter with the ex at the supermarket.

So that's it.

Nothing changed. Everyone gets to play in their little corners. Fine. I can see that continuing this chain of discussion will get me nowhere.

Edit: Apparently not. There is still hope yet.

Brutal honesty is giving an honest opinion, not covering a person with insults. It's saying "No, this isn't a good idea, you shouldn't do it". It's not remotely on par with how you describe it and it's kind of depressing that Godwin's Law has popped up here of all places.




Except that, at least when it comes to news articles, they can't, thanks to the policy of not removing already published articles, regardless of the original authors request. So really, it's better to fix the idea before it gets published.


Conflict is when two sides have different goals and the outcome is unknown. Conflict makes for interesting reading because it creates tension. Personal insults are not the same thing as conflict.

EDIT: And I think I'd like to include a couple things that people on both sides of the aisle seem to have forgotten from the "General Advice" thread.



Emphasis mine.

Right in all seriousness the reason I posted the gif wasn't just "lol look how funny I am", we're supposed to be honest in this thread and that's how I literally feel. Frankly it was either that or bailing on the thread in a shower of sparkles and pyrotechnics, with fireworks spelling out obscenities in fifty foot high letters but I didn't have the budget for that so anyway.

Here's what I think. I think I'm sick of being one of the handful of people at the crow dinner. I'm sick of outlining what I think only to be ignored, overlooked, and/or tacitly/outright accused of being The Problem with the boards in spite of everything.

So I'm sorry if it's not going to be one of my essay long things because, hey, fuck me anyway right?

Vahruun: because then it will be different is a terrible excuse for not changing.

A_prom: I'll cop to overlooking details, I'll cop to being partially in the wrong; I won't cop to the fact that for all the rich backstory and worldbuilding you have it still lacks any actual, material, faults or consequences. Letter of the word without any of the spirit.

Taleeze: Really? Your initial arguments? Where you literally said that you were an oppressed minority and didn't need to change at all? Or how about your current arguments when you said that you can't be assed to actually work on changing anything or even take a second look as to how you handle PTSD with on of your characters and instead are just going to drop it.

Four: You completely, utterly, and totally ignored everything I said in my reply to you in favor of continuing in the same. Fucking. Vein. without an ounce of deviation or acknowledgement. So here's what I think: I think you're using the "calm the fuck down" order as a shield from which you can being as passive aggressive, as blandly offensive, backhandedly hurtful, and misrepresent as many arguments as you want without ever getting slapped down.
Oh bull-fucking-shit. No, you know what no. Just no. You do not get to paint yourself as a well meaning but clumsy person whose outcomes never measure up to what he hoped. You were a bully. You put people, including me, down in the form of passive aggressive feedback because you didn't like what I was writing and essentially told me I was playing my character wrong and was mistaken about what I really meant. You also told me to my face, when I disagreed with your feedback and called you out for your poor etiquette and borderline godmoding in Lash Mob, that my characters were blatant wish fulfillment and essentially terrible.

So

forgive me

if I don't actually believe you. Or trust you. Or value any of your advice about conflict resolution.

I'm going to do some quoting here, which I imagine is enough for some people to skip reading this post entirely. That'd be a shame, though - just because I don't feel the need to stretch basic points out into paragraphs doesn't make those points less valid.

Something you said earlier in the same post:
Whether you're approaching people directly or not, whether they're approaching you directly or not, it's not working. That's why this keeps coming up, and yes, you're absolutely right that this thread features a lot of the same themes as the Hugbox thread. Things are being repeated because they're still problems, obviously the approach taken at the end of the Hugbox thread did not work. Time for a new tactic, preferably one with less heads buried in the sand.

Let's keep in mind that this internet forum is in fact a simulation of a fictional future internet forum. There are literally millions of people who log into the real internet every day with every intention of making every other user look like a drooling moron, so this actually seems to me like a perfectly valid reason to post. Stepping away from the keyboard is the exact opposite of what happens in that situation in real life, and the same should probably hold true in the future.

Poisoning the homeless isn't something that the prostitution industry generally does in real life, and it's certainly not a problem faced by prostitutes in their day-to-day lives. I'm not criticizing the arc, but it doesn't serve as a suitable example of showcasing the dangers of the prostitution industry, which is what's being discussed with regards to Aprom.
Nobody is saying this. Nobody ever said this. Please feel free to continue disputing statements only you have ever made.

Even people who love their jobs have work-related problems and stress from time to time, and what people are saying is that in this case, even where it's present, it's so understated that it might as well not be.

Everyone else is already saying it, I'm just making this post to ensure that the message is heard:

4Eyes, stop ignoring the conversation and parroting yourself in every single post you make here.