[Technology] Enter Abroholos - CAM Unveils Candidate for Hierarchy SAW

Enter Abroholos - CAM Unveils Candidate for Hierarchy SAW

Hiral Calgomis, Safety Off Weekly

The Extranet has been rife with rumors these past few days, ever since the confidential meeting between representatives of Confederate Arms Manufacture (CAM) and the Turian Hierarchy. Many have speculated that it was where CAM introduced their entry into the Hierarchy’s squad assault weapon tender. As the details have finally been released, we can definitely state the rumors are true.

At a presentation at the famed Camp Petrefax, CAM - represented by senior board member Rahab Had’desh and a small armed entourage - demonstrated prototypes of the XAR/2H to a selection of delegates for the Hierarchy’s military and logistic services. All sorts of rumors and speculation surrounded the weapon, both prior to and after the meeting, but much of it has been proven incorrect.

First, popular theories that the weapon would be named Kamalar, Brakkor, Goronak or Granak were all unfounded (if well-researched) speculation. Instead, the XAR/2H has officially been christened the Abroholos - a name that commentators are quick to point out is a reference to either a Khar’shan mountain range, a minor turian wrathful spirit class, or an Earth wind.

Similarly false were “leaks” that the XAR/2H would utilize a heat disposal system based around micro-clips (like the N7 Typhoon), or a proprietary cooling slug (such as the Revenant). Instead, the weapon makes use of a large amount of standardized rifle heat clips. This revelation elicited expressions of doubt, but this turned to interest as demonstrators showed the weapon accepting several heat clip types designed for the Phaeston. Although the exact specifics are confidential, the weapon is believed to use a revolving setup that holds several clips simultaneously, loading fresh ones from the weapon’s high-capacity magazine as spent ones are ejected, all while maintaining a constant rate of fire.

The Abroholos, described by one of those present as having the bulk, weight and design aesthetic of “two Kishocks in an over-under configuration,” has a distinct silhouette, and some critics have expressed doubt about the front grip being placed on the underside of the barrel shroud, with the user’s front hand between it and the underbarrel magazine. The weapon appears primarily designed to be fired either from the hip, or using the built-in folding bipod. Firing from the shoulder has been described as “possible, but somewhat uncomfortable”.

The weapon uses a proprietary recoil compensation using a secondary, reverse “kick” after every shot; in addition, the bulk of the weight has been placed underneath. Due to this, participating Hierarchy soldiers described the XAR/2H as “Very unintuitive at first” but quickly went on to praise the weapon’s high capacity and firepower, as well as unmatched stability while firing. Although it’s not the final version, a number of questions required CAM representative Rahab Had’desh to note that whether the Abroholos will be released on the open market “had yet to be decided.” However, commentators agree that, should it be selected, CAM’s facilities will be hard-pressed to meet the Hierarchy’s manufacturing demand.

On a darkly humorous note, one of the models suffered a jam during the presentation. This fact was not noticed at first, as the user calmly kept firing for several seconds more, leading to the viral sentiment of “I couldn’t think of a better tribute to the Bruja.”

what.

who the fuck though it would be a good idea to make it difficult to shoulder-fire?

Someone who doesn't know a damn thing about how guns work?

Hopefully they solve that before it enters service, or the thing's going to be an embarrassment.

Oh my God

Oh my God

I can't breathe

They did what?

For anybody with stock in CAM a piece of friendly advice: sell

now.

Because if this is their next generation LMG that they're putting forth to the galactic weapons market I

ah

oh my God I can't keep a straight face.

Suffice to say that this does not bode well and, as a launching point for what will presumably be a new line of weaponry, is most likely going to fall rather short (barring some comprehensive and costly structural overhauls).

I...It would fit with some of the odder physiologies in the Terminus, or perhaps for an Elcor, but I can't imagine why you would submit such a design to the turian hierarchy. It seems outright bizarre.

Perhaps there is something the article fails to mention? Next-generation tactical uplink, perhaps?

Possibly but something that cutting edge would hardly be considered cost-effective to implement on a wide scale.

...which is somewhat the point of this entire exercise.

I have a hard time to imagine how to aim a gun that isn't designed for firing from the shoulder, but SAWs don't need to be aimed that much anyway for suppression fire. I think it won't be that particular aspect why the gun will likely fail. I mean, the turians who tried that gun seemed to like it, but as they said, unintuitive.
And this is why I think this gun will fail. If it is unintuitive, then the training needs to be changed, recruits and soldiers alike will have to learn a completly new gun. The hierarchy has a history with sticking (gluing, being bolted, fused...) to what has worked in the past under the label of pragmatism, so I can't see a reason for them to choosing a superior gun if they have to change how they do training everywhere.
Well, they have lasted for millenia, so there might be a point in there... somewhere.

Anyway, I am looking forward to who the Abroholos will perform against the competion.

To all those others reading that piece of weaponized (hah!) ignorance, please

allow me to disabuse the lovely Mr. Schmidt of any pretensions as to his own "expert" credentials.


Let me to break this down into a nice, numbered list so as not to strain your sadly overworked greyish matter.

1. Even guns with "unmatched stability" still must find their own ways to deal with recoil, the primary method of mitigating that particular hurdle is to brace the weapon against one's shoulder. Not only does this alleviate the stress placed on your shoulders and arms (something that holding a heavy SAW down by your hip tends to exacerbate) but it allows for more controlled aiming.

2. There is a fine, but definite, difference between "not requiring precise aim" and "not being able to be aimed at all". One of the primary roles of LMGs is intimidation. You lose the element of fear I think if you literally cannot do much but point it in the general direction of enemy forces, hold down the trigger, and pray.

3. Aiming from the hip is something that one does in emergency situations ie, "running and gunning" when you simply need to put as many rounds downwind as possible and don't have the luxury of enough time to ensure proper firing procedure. Otherwise it is an absolutely godawful spot to try and shoot from. You must turn at the hip to adjust your aim rather than simply revising the angle of your arms as in a shoulder mount, you cannot effectively aim over low cover nor bring it to bear rapidly.


So, in your own words, the only reason that the gun with the absolutely nightmarish architecture will fail is because training new soldiers up around the nightmarish architecture will be too costly and time consuming.


Once again you display your issues with understanding basic things like "labels". The Hierarchy did not become one of, if not arguably the premier military force of the galaxy without adapting and adjusting their tactics to the challenges presented to them. It does not pretend to be pragmatic. It is pragmatic.

Which is the reason that they're not simply sticking with the Organ Grinder and calling it a day if you will recall.

So in conclusion, no, it is not a superior gun. It is, in all likelihood, an overengineered, flashy piece of equipment that was not made with the proper clients in mind.


I assure you I searched your words quite thoroughly and there was not one to be found.

Batarian ingenuity at its finest.

Pardon me if I talk nonsense, I'm in no way a weapon expert, but the XAR/2H sounds like a revolutionary defensive weapon. Once deployed on its bipod it can fire non-stop if you can feed it a steady supply of heat sink, which is pretty amazing compared to the current stationary weapons that needs venting times once in a while.
Now of course it sounds like a terrible standard infantry weapon and the hierarchy will never go for it, but it was my understanding that they were never going to consider a batarian weapon as their new standard anyway, if anything for obvious morale reasons. This is just a showcase, and the folk at CAM took advantage of it to show everyone this interesting new technology.

There's a reason mounted weapons never switched away from fixed heat sinks. Anything with that combined firepower and ROF would go through standard disposable sinks faster than a cheap hooker goes through novacoke. Continuous fire would just exacerbate the situation. Unless you plan on building a thermal clip recycler nearby, that sort of weapon would would be wasteful of resources and place an unnecessary strain on supply lines if deployed in mass. Uninterrupted firing capability has been done before in turrets with three fixed heat sinks, but the feature wasn't worth the added weight, cost, and difficulty of maintenance.

The Abroholos may be able to find some niche uses somewhere, but its not revolutionary.

As RTB said, it's...not that revolutionary. Any machine gun worth it's salt can be fitted with a bipod for stability purposes. It's usually the best way to fire said weapon.

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by 'stationary'. Current LMGs such as the Typhoon and the heavier MMG, the M-11 Crucible take heatsinks. Different ones to the standard assault rifle and for a very good reason-assault rifle heatsinks simply can't take the heat.

Unless you meant mounted weapons, in which case RTB is correct and the heatsinks thing is an even worse problem, but the Hierarchy isn't looking for a turret that's gonna chew through their heatsinks like they're fucking pretzels-they're looking for a bloody LMG. In which case not being able to shoulder-fire comfortably is a terrible terrible design flaw. Lemme tell you-hitting anything while firing an LMG from the hip is impossible.

And also got my leave cancelled when I was a stupid FNG in AIT.

And sure a bipod is great but you've gotta have time to go prone and set it up, you know? Fucking great for defence but assaulting? Man you're fucked.

Hu... Then I really don't know what they were going for.

You know what? I agree on the basic point that you must be able to fire an SAW from the shoulder, yet I think it is unfair to judge the gun before any comprehesive trials have been conducted and that gun compared to the other candidates. I won't count the gun out just because firing from shoulder is "possible, but somewhat uncomfortable".
First, all points fail to address the quoted part properly, but hey, I won't tell if you don't. ;)

1. you make an awful lot of assumptions based on what the article tells and does not. We know nothing about the targeting VI, we don't know how that gun will work with suit-based targeting solutions and (I repeat) the turian soldiers seemed to work well with that gun after adjusting to it. Plus they said it isn't comfortable to aim from shoulder, but doable

2. Leave these kinds of assumptions to people like me who have been on both ends of suppression fire. You in your cushy penthouse office do not know what you are talking about. I distantly remember when Taleeze (I think) said (paraphrasing here) "the best suppression fire is that one you can actually hit people with", everyone argued loudly that accuracy is secondary for an SAW and its purpose. So when I basically say the same thing (accuracy is secondary) I get yelled at too. Something does not add up here.

3. See 1., especially the part about targeting VI. Also there are plenty of helmet interfaces that aid you when hip-firing. Also you read the part about how the gun does recoil or where the grip is? I am pretty sure the designers thought long and hard about that issue. Of course it doesn't explain why that would be good idea I, for one, don't know why they thought it was.

So you are capable of reading and understanding what people write without your secretary's assistance? Here, have a cookie. Although I don't you where you picked up the part with he nightmarish architecture. Not from me anyway. I didn't comment on it because I have yet to see a picture.
No it is because it is a really old gun that is outmatched by todays Phaeston (Yes I know it is an AR, but with that clip capacity it does fill in the SAW role nicely). The alliance would have replaced at least a decade ago because its performance against modern armor and shields is terrible. The turians stuck to the organ grinder way past the point of pragmatism.


You mean that is why it had been the same for millenia until the System Alliance kicked them out of Shanxi? Or how the current primarchs biography high-lights that he wasn't liked well by the establishment prior becoming primarch because his tendency to "interpret" orders? (Not a bad thing the gambits he pulled should be required reading at officer school.) Whoever you employ that drafts the doctrines for your hired guns, fire him or her. He or she is giving you bad advice. Face it, the hierarchy military isn't pragmatic, it is conservative. Superficially similar, but not the same.

I don't have enough information about that gun and its competition or about the turian trials to make such a judgement like this, please enlighten me about your sources that allow you to make one.

That feeling is mutual. I get it every time I read your uninformed dribble.

Why do I even respond? You don't agree with me, you insult me even before you try with actual arguments and non of us is willing to give the other side the time of day and I hate that kind of pointless back and forth. Is this how you get off? Do I have to assume that you are more interested in insulting me than dicussing wether or not that Abroholos has a chance? If that is the case I suggest we abort this here, I think we both have better things to do that pointless extranet mud-slining.

Maybe it's just not comfortable for turians to shoulder yet? This might be a much earlier prototype than they seem to be implying.

Truth be told, the thing I'm most worried about here is heatsink consumption. Sounds like the Abroholos is going to go through them very quickly.

I must say, from a design standpoint, it's a pretty ingenious system. Supply issues aside, uninterupted fire is a nice idea. However, from a practical standpoint, there are several things counting against this: uncomfortable shoulder-fire, aforementioned supply issues, and of course the fact this weapon seems to be designed for a different race.

So truth be told, although it will be quite interesting to watch its performance at the trials, I have to doubt its chances of beating out the competition. I hear there's some other very unique designs coming in to these trials as well. Should be fun to watch.

(And who knows, maybe I'll be able to get my hands on the schematics for that heat dissipation system.. I already have some...ideas)

And that statement of tolerance says virtually everything that needs to be said about your professional qualifications as both a soldier and designer of weaponry.


Crying "but targeting VI" does little to nothing to address the points I raised regarding body strain, difficulties inherent in adjusting aim when positioning your gun at your hip, and how are soldiers to effectively manage recoil. All of which have a direct impact on the carrier's aim. Integrated systems are not a magic bullet Mr. Schmidt and they cannot completely compensate for the aforementioned in any case.


I served in the SAMC for over five years as a sniper. I currently oversee a transstellar weapons manufacturing group.

You may or may not have performed fellatio on the appropriate officials to be bumped up to an N7 Irregular squad after working a desk for...how many years was it?

Try again.


Because one extreme is wrong does not necessitate that the other extreme be automatically correct. LMG's function best when firing in the approximate direction of hostile targets. This does not require marksman levels of accuracy but it does mean that you have to be able to point it in the general area. But, of course, given your extensive field experience I'm certain you already knew that.


Let it be shown that Mr. Schmidt, both by virtue of neglect to effectively address my points and explicit admission

agrees with me.

The natural progression from this, of course, is that Mr. Schmidt himself believes that he is wrong and is presumably arguing so as to try and make sure that nobody else catches on to that fact.


It's a reference to the design that makes firing from the shoulder difficult yet rewards firing blind from the hip.

You know, only what we've been discussing this entire time.


Let me break this down for you.

It worked. Then it ceased to be effective. When it became apparent that it would cease to be effective they began exploring replacement options.

This is the definition of pragmatism, there was no direct, pressing need to swap out the design a decade ago because (against the shields and armor of ten years past) it still fulfilled its role within acceptable margins.

You idiot.


Considering that it took virtually every naval asset in humanity's possession at the time to forcibly evict a flotilla and doctrine remained unchanged even after the defeat I fail to see what point you are trying to make.


Yes, and when it became apparent that his tactics were successful they were rapidly and widely adopted within the Hierarchy military. Not fought by legions of aging Admirals. Which is what would happen if the Hierarchy was purely conservative. Instead of pragmatic.

What's this? Is it...dare I call it

a source?


You respond due to a pathological inability to admit to yourself that your point, and by extension your line of reasoning and cognitive capabilities, are at fault. If you allow me to have the last word that, to you, means that I "won" this decidedly one sided discussion. It means that you were wrong. And, to someone of your incalculable ego, that is intolerable.

Allow me to enlighten you Mr. Schmidt: I am not actually arguing with you. I address your points (and yes you have points, poor stunted things that they are) because you are, in your entirety, a more effective strawman to my arguments than any hyperbolic device I could create myself. You encapsulate, in each of your posts, a host of ridiculous ideas that are simplicity itself to stand up and knock down. That is why I talk to you at all, because with every reply you make it easier and easier to refute any opposition.

I just insult you on top of it because I consider you to be a mental and social inferior worthy of as little respect as possible.

And because it amuses me.

Just going to throw in my two cents and mention that even if the targeting VI of this weapon managed to address all the issues inherent in firing from the hip, (and while we're dreaming about utterly ridiculous things also got you free beer and blowjobs) it would still be a terrible weapon. A targeting VI is not a substitute for being capable of aiming a weapon properly, you will not always be able to use a targeting VI. A targeting VI is a tool to be used sparingly, it is not the be all end all and it should not be relied on to the point of exclusivity.

So it's not like you'd have any reason to criticize a rival product, right?

It so happens that my professional and personal opinions happily coincide on the matter.

I'll spare everyone a wall of quotes, because no one deserves to see what Jaquento writes more than once. After all, the Abroholos is but an abstract metaphor for him: unfathomable, egotistic, ugly, and desperately searching for an audience that it will never find. I don't really care to validate his, uh, defense of this thing, because Sandman has covered everything there is to cover in that regard and I'd rather not leave my contribution to a thread as 'what he said'. I don't really care about it, honestly, but Jaquento's obsession with the Hierarchy seems to be his natural immune response to logic. I'll just open up with how an actual dictionary defines pragmatism.

Normally, I'd feel content to leave it here, but this entire argument precipitates on what 'pragmatism' means, and when one party has literally no clue, I feel I need to further elaborate. Let's start with what 'practical' means.

Now let's figure out what the other element in this failure to understand what this means is.

It is pragmatic not to take a weapon out of circulation still capable of performing within acceptable boundaries. It is pragmatic to ensure you won't need to extensively reeducate your soldiers on the operation of a new, untested weapon when you don't need to. It is pragmatic to take that weapon out of circulation when it's no longer capable of doing the job it was capable of doing. It is pragmatic to unleash a population reduction bomb on an overwhelmingly numerically superior force when the option becomes available. It is pragmatic to cure that weapon when needs arise that demand such advantages. It is pragmatic to reassess your entire military doctrine in light of changing battlefield conditions.

The true irony about this all is that the only one who hasn't changed is Jaquento, and as the Hierarchy and the galaxy changes around him, he's sitting in the same desk he usually sits in, complaining about the same things he usually does. He's the immovable rock, the ultra-conservative stick in the mud who's refused to budge or concede his position once in some failed attempt at looking like he's won by virtue of attrition. Old man yells at nebula. News at eleven.