So right, can someone please explain to me

how the fuck shit like this makes sense.

From MercNet btw.


Reason I'm even asking you all is 'cause some of you aren't completely fucktarded and the thread got locked 'bout an hour ago after it started tanking the servers after that post.

So uh

yeah.

Anybody gonna take a crack at this?

Isn't that the argument you've been trying to make this whole time in regards to the Soldiers = Merc thing? That one's somehow inherently better than the other? C-Space good, T-Space bad?

You haven't been paying any attention, have you?

At least you're enjoying Uncle Garm Garm.

Life Expectancy for turians in the hierarchy!

Life Expectancy for turians in the terminus!


Educational Attainment for turians in the hierarchy!

Educational Attainment for turians in the terminus!

I couldn't find stats for drell!

Argument over! C-Space good (or at least better) T-Space bad (or at least worse). What else IS there?

Probably not. I just really don't care. I said my piece and set the record straight, whether you like it or not. In fact, I care so little I got bored and made a meme.




I'll be perfectly honest, this is fun

You want to fucking rag on me don't use a picture of a war hero to do it.

Fucking can't even get the gender right.

Ass.

No, argument not over. I'm not gonna fuckin' take that one lying down. Terminus through-and-through over here and NOT for any kind of varrenshit patriotic reasons. I'm a decent guy! Fundamentally decent guy! On virtually ALL accounts! And (this thread and its associated shitstorm aside), I've been pretty fuckin' nice up until this point, haven't I? And you're saying 'T-Space bad', which by extension condemns pretty much everyone in T-Space to being considered assholes, fuckheads, murderers, thieves, sociopaths and psychos! I am SORELY disappointed in you. Let's take this by the numbers, shall we?

Let's step back from the MANY, MANY concrete, solid examples I've been giving this WHOLE fucking time, and look at what's being said here. Any functioning organization has some basic properties they all share. For example, they have 'standard' practices when it comes to dispute resolution (whether within the group or dealing with an outside power), common resource management, succession of leadership and so on. The way gangs handle these things is far more direct (not necessarily violent, but that tends to be VERY common because it works) than, say, in the SA or Hierarchy. But at their core they do the same thing; it's a bunch of guys who get together, and follow the same basic rules - whatever those rules may be within the group. Depends on the organization, depends on the people who make it up, and it depends on the situation it's in.

There is nothing revolutionary, somehow morally bad, or even impressive looking at it this way just because it's common sense.

All your statistics are saying is that C-Space has more resources (longer life expectancy brought on by certain medical technologies that aren't commonly available in T-Space and violent death-rates that are lower because of you guys managing to enforce your particular gang's rules a little better and making a point of NOT always killing the people who're supposed to follow them when they don't) and the numbers and firepower to hang onto those resources in the face of outside aggression.

I can cite a TON of legitimate recognized governments that do this openly. The Batarian Confederation's got two in it that jump to mind immediately: The Camalan Grusto and fucking Lorek. C-Space is no exception. The way these organizations (C-Space political parties, the C-Space nation-states at large, factions WITHIN those states) interact is all evocative of gang politics on Omega, and yes I am using the term 'gang politics' because that's essentially what it is. Politics. Or, in T-Space terms 'business.' The two are one and the same.

Think about it. The Reaper War. Shepard's very position as a Spectre, C-Space’s general approach to running shit, all that is rife with examples of political deals (doing business - there’s no difference between the two).

Let's wind the clock back, say, six years. Humanity wants to get someone into the Spectres. Shepard happened to be their ideal candidate. With all the stonewalling humanity was experiencing from the Council for X and Y reasons in regards to Matter A and Matter B, they wanted more say with the Council, and getting a Spectre in looked good for the humans. You're telling me no deals were struck or favors exchanged behind closed doors to make that happen?

Let's fast-forward to the Reaper War, and the Bahak debacle that preceded it. As [REDACTED] and Calypso have been so kind as to go into detail about (props to both of you), nothing was really gained from Bahak (even if the Reapers were coming and Shepard knew about it). The Alliance prepares to put Shepard on trial for war crimes, but what happens? Reapers show up and she gets a fucking pardon because...why? Then she gets reinstated as a Spectre on top of that. I'm guessing...politics and deal-making behind closed doors. Business, gang shit, etc. etc. This pattern of behavior is expected at this point. Nothing new, and it’s not inherently wrong (or at least it wouldn’t be under other, more common circumstances - I think we can all agree Reaper Invasion is a good fucking time to make exceptions to the rules).

(The very existence of Spectres is a fucking joke to me, but I'll go on a rant about that later - it's tangential but related. We'll come back to it.)

Anyways, Reaper War. This is where the typical pattern of expected behavior becomes unacceptable, especially when you C-Spacers dress it up as something else entirely.

Palaven gets Reaperfucked. They turn to the krogan for help. The krogan are all 'lol giv us genophage cure.' Galactic apocalypse underway - CYCLICAL GALACTIC APOCALYPSE, MILLIONS OF YEARS IN THE MAKING, HAPPENING AS THIS IS GOING ON - And the krogan are using the promise of their support as leverage to get what they want. The salarian government does NOTHING, because the Narra bloodline's demands (don't defend non-salarian space guize) are met for the sake of preventing a rebellion within the Union. Then it circles back around to this whole fucking- I-

i need a drink before i can continue, excuse me

ok

drink get

back on topic

THEN it circles back around to this whole fucking steaming pile of varrenshit that results in the Human-Turian-Krogan alliance against the Reapers while the salarians and the asari drag their feet or flat-out refuse to do anything. Then Councilor Valern's ass gets saved, and he commits the Third Salarian Fleet to the war effort (something I get the impression he was NOT supposed to do) because he got what he wanted (he wanted to not die and he got that).

And I'm not even fucking finished with this rambling incoherent pile of varrenshit I call a post. I have not yet BEGUN to fight.

Let's talk Spectres, shall we. Give me some good points about Spectres, class.


FUCK YOU, THE SHOW IS DISTRACTING
I NEED TO USE ONE SET OF EYES TO WATCH IT WHILE I TYPE
YOU SUCK FOR INTRODUCING ME TO IT

Well there was that little thing called the rebellions. Maybe you've heard of it?

Surprise, surprise - the organisation of stable, prosperous planets bound by the code of law is superior to a cluster of war-torn, crime-ridden planets and stations in the clutches of various tinpot autocracies, corporations and gangs. It's the same reason why I'd sooner have lived in 1st century Rome than 21st century Somalia.

One of them is directly responsible for your continued existence.





Ah, shit, you're right. I concede the point.

Yeah, this, and I really don't know how it's arguable. If they're doing the same thing, one group is seriouly inept. I think that'd be a way bigger knock on the people of the Terminus.

Proctor, you know I mostly agree with you, but:


Using an ancient kingdom that kept slaves (I don't know about Somalia, admittedly) isn't going to help your point.

And on top of that had a completely out of touch ruling caste that was too focused on it's "bread and circuses" to see the problems that slowly rotted away it's empire.

In fact it mostly describes the batarian Hegemony. The only exception I can think of is their differing methods of information control.

And Somalia described a nation state that was under the splintered and repeatedly passed around control of multiple extremist groups. This is more in line with The Abyss then the Terminus, since most states in the region are not anarchistic, and do in fact, have laws that are written up to suit it's population and are enforced.

it's kind of amazing how all the aliens pretend to know more about ancient history of earth than i actually do.
never heard of somalia but does not sound like a holiday resort.

pirates are scum. but that has been said a few times, not much to contribute there anymore.

For a little different point of view here - coming from someone who fought pirates under a Hierarchy banner and committed it under another - I fraggin' hate piracy, it's an arse of a job. It's the space lane equivalent of a stickup, with all the bloodshed (yours and theirs), shit goin' pear-shaped, random xemna crap, living on the run garbage as a groundside stickup. You have no idea what you're gonna find on that ship and if you screw up you suck vacuum. Or bleed out. Or suck vacuum while bleeding out.

You don't feel too damn good about yourself after you done it, either. I did it a few times, a couple times because nobody would give us what we needed even though we had credits....sometimes because the stuff was hard to come by, sometimes because nobody thought the risk to run the Solregit blockade was worth what we could afford to pay....once because I was hungry and they were hirin'. Oh yeah, and on that note, if you're a pirate, you gotta trust your captain/first mate won't try to backstab you when the job is done. At least if you're a privateer you can file a complaint. Ditto for a reputable mercenary organization.

Pirates are generally scum and I don't lose much sleep for those ones I shot or otherwise extinguished during my time in service. And now that "piracy" is generally a term applied to spacejackers, if (Spirits forbid) I ever found myself having to kill for a living again, I'd rather do it on terra firma, where I can catch my own food and the oxygen's all free.

Hey, look.

Autocracies and corporations.

Stuff that calls for legislation, and legitimate rules laid out on paper. Being compared to gangs.

Gorak nal ibsalis. 'Your house, your rules.' Just because it's your house and your rules, it doesn't automatically make them any better, more legitimate, or superior. Or even any different. You guys have resources, and manpower, and big, BIG guns. You're seriously saying that you guys AREN'T just the biggest gangs on the block?


What, the krogan rebellions?

OK, let's take this one by the numbers.


SALARIAN: "OK, the krogan are getting uppity and starting a war with us, what should we do? Organize a proper defense and coordinate our fleets, and all that junk?"

TURIAN: "I like that idea!"

ASARI: "We should make a special unit SPECIFICALLY made of lone agents that happen to be our best soldiers and then give them carte blanche to enforce galactic law on top of that, despite the fact that we're fighting a war against the krogan and lone soldiers might not make that big of an impact, even if they're really good! And then let's see what they can do against the endless, ever-growing hordes of krogan when they use weapons and armor they bought themselves!"

SALARIAN: "THIS IS A GREAT PLAN"

TURIAN: "I LIKE IT TOO"

ASARI: "GREAT, LET'S FUCK TO CELEBRATE"

SALARIAN: "I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS"

TURIAN: "I ESPECIALLY LIKE HOW THE LONE AGENT PART WORKS, BECAUSE THAT DIRECTLY GOES AGAINST THE ENTIRE BASIS OF MY WHOLE SOCIETY, WHICH IS THAT EVERYONE'S PART OF A GREATER CAUSE AND LONERS ARE THE BAD GUYS! THIS CAN'T POSSIBLY GO WRONG!"

OH

LOOK

IT WENT WRONG

Spectre activity in the fucking Terminus Systems.

Saren and the geth attack on the Citadel.

Shepard working for Cerberus.

Bahak.

And the best part is that the Council's occasionally gone on the record as stating 'we don't always want to know what the guys with supreme authority and elevation above our own laws, y'know, the authority we gave them, are doing.' In other words, 'we need people above the laws to maintain a state that functions based on those laws, and you can't blame us when this goes wrong.'

The entire basis of your society is allegedly the codification, enforcement and support of these very rules and laws - basic ideas that everyone's supposed to go along with for the sake of making shit work. And Spectres are held up to be the pinnacle of that! The paragons that are held up to be the shining example of what everyone should strive to be in C-Space! The first and last line of the Council's defense! The good guys! And then when they're considered to be that pinnacle, they get a license that explicitly says they don't need to follow the rules anymore.

How fucked up is that?


Who's to say that shit wouldn't have shaken out pretty much the same way, even if Shepard wasn't there?

The galaxy can't be that full of dipshits and morons that we couldn't coordinate and rally a proper unified defense, right? That's not what you're saying, right? You can't be seriously implying that somehow, Shepard's existence was a REQUIREMENT for the galaxy at large managing to survive the apocalypse, right?! RIGHT?! RIGHT?! RIGHT?! AM I RIGHT?! THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, RIGHT?!

You know, Mr. Me-

Mek.

I think the Spectre program is interesting because none of the three races really operate in that way within their own circles. Not just the turians, but asari make group decisions - on a lengthy timescale, with lots of communal oversight - and we salarians have a really convoluted society where everything is being considered in terms of wheels within the Wheel, if that makes sense? We're not like your people or the humans, where you're much more about small tribes and posturing individuals, no offence. So I have wondered if part of the reason for Spectres and the like is because the ability to act and operate like that, on your own, unconnected, getting results - and good results - in spite of it, is seen as a really special thing to us? Like twins in some cultures, you know? Like they're rare, they have that dangerous mystique, might be destined for greatness but can just as equally bring about something bad? I think there's some real sense of awe in that, which maybe you don't share? And that this is why the idea of the Loner, outside the law, has such power. They're different. A force that we can harness for good, but never really control.

I sort of see it the way I see Justicars. I wrote about that here before.


I wonder if that makes sense? That the Council races - minus humans - just have a thing for the Loner that batarians, say, don't?

I usually hate quote blocks but fuck it.
You mean special forces use the best? I'm fucking shocked.

The entire premise of your argument is shit because, like literally every shitty post you've made you've reduced, reduced, and reduced until the point you think you're refuting was never being discussed. The Spectres were not assembled to win the war, like you're pretending. They were assembled to help fight it like any other element of a war machine. There were armies. There were space battles. For all intents and purposes, the Spectres performed the mission they were created for - that is, asymmetrical warfare and surgical strikes against key supply lines or infrastructure - perfectly.

Like, you've literally never heard of taking out an enemy's factories to shut down an enemy's capacity to produce? Is your view so fucking binary that if a Spectre didn't kill the President Vizier of Krogans and caused the krogan to inject the genophage into themselves that apparently they were the worst idea of all time? Every battle won, every commander assassinated or supply line disrupted set back the krogan and pooling together the best of three species allowed them to do that job better than if they were as you said, LONE SOLDIERS.

I especially like the part where we only made contact with the asari and salarians in the middle of the Rebellions, and from their standpoint - a task force of highly trained, highly specialized individuals making unconventional preemptive strikes on strategically valuable enemy installations and supply lines would be seen as a great solution given their respective military backgrounds. I especially like the part where you shit out another absurd, reductionist depiction of the turian species because we're apparently organic geth and we get dumber the less people there are. No, there's nothing mutually exclusive about OUR SOCIETY DURRHURRHURR having agents act in service to a greater cause.

oh look, one-up on citadel versus terminus already

Apparently, I'm vaguely acquainted with Foundational-level Social Studies.

...uhm, no. It didn't. It literally didn't go wrong. Just look at the article right under it. Umsung rebrands Sonax, Speight is sent on the run... some kiss-ass press conference thanking the Council, uh, yeah. Sounded pretty good when I read that. Don't know about anyone else.

That's kind of why we use them. See below.

...corrected by another Spectre we sent after him. See below.

I'm failing to understand how this is relevant to proving your point that Spectres are evil or something.

Which as our friends at the Alliance will argue, was entirely necessary.

LOOK AT HOW INTENSE I'M BEING

You're in danger of a fucking stroke.

No, you fucking moron. We'd be fucking dead because the fucking Reapers would have arrived four years ago at the attack at the Citadel if it weren't for Shepard, they would have started with total control of the Citadel and everything and everyone on it. So who's to say Saren couldn't have had, like, had a stroke and died or Sovereign could have just spontaneously exploded on contact with the Citadel but trying to prove something could have happened with something that doesn't exist is stupid as hell.

so yes i'm pretty sure that's exactly what she's saying

Am I right? You're not implying that you forgot about that because clearly that's impossible since you referred to 'Saren and the geth attack' earlier and look as how I STEADILY GROW MORE AGGRAVATED BECAUSE I CAN PROBABLY SUBSTITUTE ANY POINTS OF VALUE WITH INTIMIDATING LETTERS. Right!?!?! Right!?!!??!?!?!

RIGHT!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

By the way, yes, the galaxy is full of dipshits and morons.

i'm talking to both right now

A full 10% of the first fleet was destroyed simply to cover the retreat from earth, not counting damage taken before the retreat or as they limped out of the relay.


Sixth fleet was forced to avoid combat as a direct result of the opening volleys, however it wasn't crippled or destroyed and would push the number above 50%, so we'll ignore it for now.

First, Third and Fifth fleets were understrength due to losses sustained in the Battle of the Citadel, but we'll ignore those two. Those losses weren't taken during the retreat from earth after all, and while they also push the statistics above 50%, it's not really relevant.


Both were cut off from resources to the point that the eighth fleet could not even resupply itself in alliance space. Eighth is crippled.


'and crippled'. I'm not sure what you call losing 10% of your fleet in a disastrous route or being nearly destroyed, but most of us call it crippled. (Which, by the way, brings me to 50%. Without having to tally up exact losses in the opening volleys for the Third and Fifth fleets, both of which were understrength and smaller than the fourth fleet due to the entire 'saving the council' thing.

Lying to misrepresent my arguments is rude, Dippy.


You're grasping at vapor and substance-less arguments, hoping that vague talk of an unknown number of lives who might have been saved will justify a massive genocide while ignoring the very real lives that were lost as a result of the delay in the war starting, as well as the additional time that our enemies used to, arguably, greater affect than the men you admit were a few individuals in the governments of galactic powers.

In order to justify genocide you don't get to go 'we might have saved a couple of people', you prove that it was entirely necessary to save an enormous amount of people, equal to or greater than the amount killed in a quantifiable manner. You need something solid that proves that genocide and war crimes were worth it.

Not vague, vacuous bullshit about a couple of minor measures that were implemented to little effect.


Time gained on the reapers wasn't a good thing if you did nothing of relevance with it.


Because a superdreadnought wrecked everyone's shit at the Battle of the Citadel. That's a very good reason to have more dreadnoughts.


Combined with geth attacks, a weakened alliance defense fleet due to the battle of the citadel, the near-genocide over Terra Nova, and the socio-political benefits of the action?

It might.


Yes, but considering the geth assault (With reaper superdreadnought!) on the citadel, and increased alliance influence due to their new place in the council, improved relations with the Hierarchy was a priority, as were very public improved relations with the Hierarchy.

The dreadnought limitation fulfilled all of those, and the battle of the citadel would only make it more tempting.


Who says it was overnight? It was announced alongside the joint exercises, but both of us know that these decisions aren't sudden. It was likely the result of months, if not years, of diplomacy.


Well, you did claim that an incredibly important foreign policy decision (Dreadnought restrictions, which, due to the Treaty of Farixen, affected dreadnought production across the entirety of council space) was made in reaction to the Reapers.


If it was a tiny minority doing little things over years then the three months Bahak brought were not worth murdering those people, especially considering the downsides which included the quarians enacting a ruinous campaign of genocide against the geth.

You also refuse to nail down specific statistics and actions that would justify Bahak and are relying on vague suppositions in order to justify genocide.


There was that entire 'reaper superdreadnought with hyper-advanced cannons' incident everyone blamed on the geth. Some people call that an excellent reason to retrofit your fleets, and it fits the vast, vast majority of C-Space forces thinking the reapers were bullshit.

And, no, not every ship in the fleets was retrofitted. The SAs eighth fleet, for example, did not have thanix cannons on many of their surviving vessels for much of the war. While it was a widespread retrofit, the System Alliance only really started to field Thanix with the Leipzig, and it wasn't finished in those three months that Shepard brought us.


We have no reason to believe that. At all. There is some evidence that it might have helped, and plenty of evidence that it hurt more than it helped.

There is a difference between revisionist history and reevaluation of history. One claims an event happened differently then recorded, the other revisits the why of an historical event and the outcome of it. It would behoove you to know the difference between the two.[/quote]

You're claiming that Bahak was totally justified because Citadel Space governments used the time to put measures in place that allowed us to win the war. Which is pretty damned revisionist.


...What do you think the area around a Relay is, exactly? Like, do you think that Bahak was, somehow, in a dark region of space surrounded by nothing at all?

Relays link to clusters, by destroying Bahak and its system and its relay you effectively kill the cluster because no-one can reach it. What, exactly, did you think the Viper Nebula was?


'A little bit more time' where, at best, a tiny minority did very little,wasn't worth murdering 300,000 people for, especially since the situation arguably got worse. There is reason to believe that Bahak cost more lives than it saved, especially considering what happened to the geth and quarians, and pointing towards nebulous actions and maybes regarding homeworld defenses that accomplished anything between nothing at all and very little honestly doesn't help your argument.


Both the quarians and geth were also crippled as a result of the war. Though frankly the latter worries me more than the former.

The geth's diplomacy and immediate rejoining of the war post-evening war indicates that they would have assisted if the Quarians hadn't invaded and begun a systemic campaign of genocide. They haven't exactly been secretive about the fact that they were preparing to fight the reapers before the quarians decided to go all genocide on them.

The quarians would also have been more useful if they hadn't gotten 6 million of themselves killed and removed an enormous source of crewed ships from the war by deciding to go off, break a treaty and commit genocide.


Smaller colonies were occupied (Many alliance ones, Tiptree for example), but we'll never know because Shepard committed genocide.


If the actions assisted by Bahak were worth losing 300,000 then I'd agree with you, but there's honestly no reason to believe that. And the situation arguably degraded during those three months.

The specters are a calculated risk, but a necessary one. You need someone who think outside the box, for instance when the council gets all "reapers are bullshit", you're happy a specter investigates it anyway.
Now I've been critical of the justicars because unlike the specters they have no organization to answer to. If a specter go too far, another specter will take them down. It can take too long, it doesn't always work, it's not perfect, but their existence is still a good thing. I guess the problem is that for obvious reasons we don't know about what they do.
It's like a vaccine, you don't know when a vaccine prevented a decease. If you didn't have the vaccine though, you may live to regret it.

I'll propose it. Every other civilization died. There's no suggestion that the Protheans were inept. Or the civ before them was inept, but they all DIED. We had Shepard! Who brought the warning and fought off Nazara and who summoned thresher maws to chow on Reapers and had Geth friends and cured genocide plagues and walked into a corrupted citadel and activated the galaxy-saving device herself and cheated death!

Greatest badass in the galaxy. By definition. She's the only one to save a civilization from the Reapers, and the only reason Batarians can't get over it is because they didn't have someone on the Normandy. The Quarians have Admiral Zorah, the Turians have Vakarian, the Geth have the Legion, the Asari have T'soni, Krogan Wrex, Salarian Mordin, even the drell have Krios and the hanar take credit for anything the drell do. There was even a Prothean! But they didn't have anyone there-if they had, they would be over Bahak by now, but they didn't...so the Batarians are incapable of giving her credit.

Or it could be Shepard's record of hostility towards batarians before the war.