Hug + Box = Death.

And lo, I come out of retirement to point something out;

This is, by far, one of the most interesting threads on this site lately. Why? Conflict.

I'm not saying 4eyes is being a good villain here - he's not - but there's contradiction, conflict, and people actually talking to each other about things that are important to them. If people always got along - or, say, were encouraged not to disagree with people in pretend space alien RPs because it hurts your pwecious widdle feewings - then some of the better writers would've stuck around and the site wouldn't be able to count all the members on two hands. You want to make this place more interesting? Stop playing characters who HAVE to get their way. Otherwise it'll end up another nameless RP community on the internet, forgotten and unloved, where two people with umpteen million different accounts play dollhouse with each other all day. And that's fucking sad.

Well most every thought I've had has been stated, albeit far more eloquently, but I just figured I should probably say something at some point (since, yeah, I'm kinda aware that a lot of the criticism is being directed at me). It was never my intention to antagonize people away from the site or sap their enjoyment of CDN. Rather, Sandy and I actually share the viewpoint that what we want most is for people to disagree. To argue. To sling back their own thoughts and opinions instead of basically taking their ball and going home. I mean, granted, it's their prerogative if they feel so inclined; but I would be lying if I said I wasn't at least partially disappointed.

Have I conflated OOC and IC in my arguments, at least with regards to points I thought were lacking OOC and addressed IC? Yes. It's happened. Probably not exactly a good thing but there it is. I tend to be combative IC. But at the same time I don't feel it's entirely unreasonable to be uncomfortable and a tad offended that people tend to dismiss everything said IC on grounds of "it's mean" then accuse me (either obliquely or, as in this thread, rather pointedly) of being insulting for the sake of being insulting.

At the risk of sounding abrasive it's really really not. Given that that's essentially how you've been acting this entire thread.

Hey, that's not gratuitous.

Ok, ok, truth time, since I'm definitely not winning any popularity contest here this year I can be truthful.
What Abad said is kind of true, I checked in with Sandman because some of his posts did feel personal, and it really was upsetting.
That's it. Make fun of me if you want, but the truth is that it wasn't about conflict, like "man, I sure don't agree with you", or "I find your character's morality stance on that subject repulsive", which is stuff I'm always ok with.
Where I start being upset is when he points out how every argument I, or the other players he usually targets can possibly make are the most retarded thing ever, and how we are drooling morons.
Now I think the key difference here is that it's not about my space alien is it? In a debate I make the arguments I can, it's not about Bintar being a sick bastard or Michelle being all bumbling, it's my arguments. It's like if I called someone in this thread a fucking idiot right now, it's not about space alien, it's me disrespecting you ooc. And he just confirmed ^ that IC and OOC mix sometimes. Which means that at those moments, it gets upsetting for us because we know he's meaning it.
I mentioned Sandman because he's currently the poster boy for the problem, but the same was definitely true for other players who, as I mentioned before, let their ooc spill all over our ic. If anything, I checked in with him because I thought we could at least be friendly ooc (still do), which is not the case for the other people I had this problem with.
It's something good abrasive players (like Pariah) would never do. And I'm telling you, you can taste the difference.
Now here's the weird thing. I know you some of you guys don't like me ooc. Not of a fan of some of you either, but I strangely don't care so much. It's like at work you know, people you don't get along with are fine, you let them do their thing, they let you do your thing, you try and stay polite around the coffee machine (which would be the irc chat).
Now if every time you work directly with those guys they start shouting "HO MY GOD YOU'RE SUCH A FUCKING IDIOT HOW CAN YOU BE SO STUPID" again and again for fucking months, you'll either punch them in the face, or consistently ignore them and try to work on projects they're not on.
Ho! That sure sounds like what's happening here!

So here's the deal, ooc insulters. We don't like it and if you do it we won't play with you. I know that in your vision of the board nobody ever argue, but it's bull. We argue all the time. Start insulting us ooc though, and soon you'll be playing alone.
Don't believe me (of course you don't)? Check out this thread. You'll notice that the conversation is pretty heated between my character and Stardust's. But it never got personal.

People were debating just fine, but it stopped when it started to become personal.
And again, if you like insulting people so much ooc, you have in this thread a list of members who are apparently begging for it. The rest of us don't like it, it's non negociable, mod support or not, so switch target or just make damn posts with actual arguments like I know you all can without the "you're an idiot" at the end, no matter the tingles it gives you.
Stressing it again : We like to argue, we just don't want to suffer the barrage of insult of our colleague every time. We're adults, use arguments, or insults aimed at the *character*. We can tell the difference.
Again, it's the deal.

I agree entirely on the spirit, but I think we're a tad past that.

So what exactly do they want? Is that some sort of "let us insult you or we're not coming back" ultimatum? Because sorry, but if that's the deal, I'm sorry but fuck that.

Ho, and one more time because I noticed some people skipped parts of my posts :
This is not about not wanting ooc debates or conflicts, since they are indeed necessary and vital and awesome. This is about us not wanting to get insulted to our face by people who disrespect not our space alien, but our earth humans. Maybe you like when people call you morons OOC, we don't.
So if you want us hugboxers playing with you, play nice ooc, or play among yourselves.

Not everyone can participate in every argument or wants to for various reasons.

I will give an example from my personal point of view.
There are people here that can drown me in amount and quality of argumentative and insulting writing where I (the ooc I) can't compete. This has various reasons. There are language and culture barriers and time issues. For me to write a post remotely close to what some here would consider above average takes me probably five times as long as many writers. I cannot, technically cannot, invest that time and effort for a lengthy argument over pages with certain players, even if I would be interested in the topic. If the other end then starts steamrolling your character on every occasion, and where ever you speak up you get flattened right away and just can't help yourself, this is the point where I start to feel inferior and exploited and have to tell that person "man, give me room to breath, I can't keep up with you, this play is not working with us."
I think this is very legitimate. He or she does not have to change for me! It's just not going together.

There are on the other hand people which I consider good writers that I can argument very well with because their style is more suiting mine, where I don't need as much time and effort to reply in an appropriate manner.

EDIT: 4eyes, please check your link.

As an individual who plays an unhinged jackhole, let me say that it's a struggle at times. Being in the head of a misanthrope, even fictional can be a challenge. Maybe that's what the powers that be want, is to challenge all of us to leave the comfort zone. But being a newbie and engaging in a verbal tilt with Nikolai Aleksanders, RTB, or j_proctor can be daunting on the first try. Am I saying tone down, hell no, my character is an insufferable prick himself. But it shouldn't be a surprise that some find it off-putting, it's a natural hazard of being an asshole IC. So all the people who are citing asshole fatigue, I agree, sooner or later, someone will just have enough and walk away. Again, occupational hazard when it comes to being an IC jackhole.

As for the hugbox tag, you just couldn't resist spiz?

Since I've been mentioned twice in this thread that I am one of the people "doing it right" when it comes to writing a character that is an ass I'm going to go ahead and step in for a moment and address a few points. I'm also going apologize in advance because I'm just not in the best of moods IRL and I may very well come across as blunt, word things poorly, etc

I would also like to state any strong language, words, and whatever is not aimed at anyone in this thread, or on CDN. So please don't get pissy with me if you think I am singling any one of you out for anything. I am not. Differences aside. I consider a lot of you very good friends.

Anyway, on to the show

One amusing thing I find right now is that when the forums started their transition into a post ME3 galaxy and when I found that I was going to be writing an asshole (Kari did not start out as one you see.), an incredibly abusive, hateful person. So I decided to start out by practicing on the comments section. There, me and another writer (who shall remain unnamed unless s/he wants to make themselves known) decided we were going to do our best and try to write characters just as controversial and hated (IC of course) as characters we loved to read back then like Corona, Corvax, Abad and Abattoir. Characters that with a post could send a thread into epileptic fits of pure rage as they said something totally vile and repugnant.

...And one person took it personally (despite the insults being slung very tame). He accused us (and other writers) of intentionally using IC as an excuse (again, despite the protests of Spiz, Corona, and the other writer.) and ragequit the forum in a huff.

And... I won't lie. I really was discouraged at that time because I made a person legitimately upset which is something I did not want to do. And something I still do not want to do. I want people to have fun after all.

Which is why I find that bit amusing. Even Kari a character I get a lot of praise for writing as an asshole has gotten it.

As to using OOC excuses to insult people IC? Yes. People do it. Hell, almost every fucking person on CDN has, or has thought about doing it at some point in their posting career. I've done it. More times than I care to admit. Am I sorry for doing it? Yes! Do I think people need to stop doing it? Yes.

But how can you tell if someone is mocking you in that specific way? How can you enforce it? Can you find the posts I made on both old and new CDN where I got a little bit pissed at someone over some stupid shit? And then can you prove without a doubt that I did it intentionally without it turning into a situation of he said, she said? You really can't. It's not a rule that you can really enforce. And unless this person is insulting, harassing, or berating you in an OOC fashion can you really do anything about it?

Anyway, on to some other points I want to address


I can feel you, Tal. I really can. There are a lot of writers, characters, and threads I generally avoid myself (not out of any malice. But because I don't particularly enjoy arguing or discussing say, the ethics of mercenaries) and that is fine. Ain't no rule sez you have to argue, debate, or participate with those threads or characters. And when you find that you are unable to keep up (which is often the case with me when I discuss artificial intelligence with Pariah) there is no shame in pulling out of the debate, thread, or whatever for a few days. It's a PBP Board! :p you have all the time in the world to write up a long, epic rebuttal telling a dude to go shove it where the sun doesn't shine! The thread isn't going anywhere at all.

Hell, in that time. You can hit up the internet, IRC, the ME or CDN wiki and all sorts of places to find ideas for it.

But there is no shame in losing and withdrawing gracefully (or not so gracefully if you write an antagonistic character), licking your wounds, and going back in to fight again another day.

And yeah, I also understand that there are writers you particularly enjoy writing or discussing things with and that is also cool. There are writers here I really, really enjoy working with (like you for instance <3) who give me a lot of fun things to work with and challenge me to go beyond my limits as a writer and my characters.


It's true. While I won't say I am a nice and good person (I'm not) writing an asshole can be really taxing. And it's easy to think (even when people aren't PMing you about your characters) that you may have gone too far when you told an alcoholic to go relapse and kill himself. And I very much agree that it can be troubling for a newbie, especially ones not well-versed in RP etiquette, to be utterly terrified when they have someone like Corvax (god bless him) write a long spiel about how you should go die. Which is why I fully support people taking newbies under their wing, invite them to RPs, make threads like Dippy does about "jobs" or "events" to get them interested. Interested newbies are more likely to stay around when they feel they are being engaged by people and, well, roleplaying.

I do agree that getting a bit of fatique with dealing with an asshole (even a fictional asshole) is taxing (hell, I get a bit worn out writing them sometimes and jump to a nicer character for a bit. But that's just me and probably not applicable to most at a whole) and as I said to Tal up in this post. I see no shame in backing off a bit, cooling off, and letting your creative juices come back so you can go at it a later time. None of these threads are going to be going anywhere so post at your own pace. :)

It's PBP!

Sorry if this is a bit rambly and stream of conciousny. As I said, I'm tired and probably not in the best situation to write walls and walls of text

To Taleeze and Snow:

I realize that there are some players here who are "more" capable of arguing than you feel you are. Sitting back and not engaging those players is not going to help you improve, however. That's not to say that you should face them head on all the time, but don't shy away from discussions with them. Read carefully, and see what you can pick up. Look at what they're saying, and if your character is more inclined to agree with them than disagree, try backing them up. If your character would disagree, think about ways you can approach the discussion from another angle. If the character hates varren but loves chorlicks, why not needle them for their opinion on moxies? (that is a terrible example)

On another (non-roleplaying) forum I frequent, which is far less forgiving than CDN, one of the most opinionated members also happens to be a professor of critical theory. He also has some pretty dumb ideas sometimes. So I'll still call him on it (poorly, compared to his replies). Sometimes things turn out in my favour. Sometimes nothing changes. And sometimes I discover that I'm incredibly wrong, I change my mind, and I become a better person. Either way I'm better off, and the board is better off. But I have to post.

Getting your toes wet, and getting out of your comfort zone will make you better writers in the long run. Nobody here wants to bite heads off of other players. If you think things are moving too fast for you, instead of asking the other player to slow down, why not try asking for help? I won't lie, some of the other people here are reading that and rolling their eyes at me, but ultimately everyone appreciates being asked for help far more than being asked to water things down.

To 4Eyes:

I read your link, and from where I'm standing Sandman's arguments, while blunt, are well within the realm of the discussion. It's not "personal", it's "IC personal". It didn't stop because it the tone changed, it stopped because someone stopped replying. I'm going to drill in on something that has been mentioned a few times, but seems to be ignored by the larger discussion:


Cerberus Daily News has been around for three and a half years. There have been lots of players, and I've liked a lot of them, and I've hated a lot of them, and some of the ones I liked I grew to hate, and vice-versa. And barring one or two players who were banned for going OOC far too much, I trusted all of them to be playing in good faith. When they argue on the boards, they are keeping to the boards, and we can still get along/tolerate each other elsewhere. If you're not willing to show the other players a little trust, or forgive them if they slip a little (and everyone slips up), then you are always going to have a problem, because you will always be jumping at shadows.

We lose players because other players are unwilling to put a little effort into replying with something that has a hook to bite into. If things get heated, rather than stick to their guns, like they would in real like, like they are doing here, people wilt. It has nothing to do with being "jerks", and everything to do with creating and maintaining conflict, and creating compelling content. It's not difficult. It requires a little bit of effort, and a little bit of trust in the abilities of the other players around you. When someone tries to stifle another player, rather than engage them, it eliminates both the effort and the trust. It results in pablum. Nobody wants pablum.


I do not want hugboxers. I want players who create things worth reading. And I believe that everyone in this thread- and on this forum- is capable of that. It just requires a little trust, a little effort, and occasionally a little forgiveness.

And if you're not capable of those three things, get the fuck off of my board.

Of course you would go and post right before me, Mandatory. Aaaarrrrgh! (<3)


This is very true. Almost all the people that have ever graced the board have been pretty cool people. Sometimes they will push things a little far, for whatever reason, but typically nobody is setting out to hurt anyone else, or get them to leave the boards. Nobody likes to hurt others for the sake of it. Nobody likes a smaller pool of roleplayers to work with. This thread is not arguing for OOC abuse. It has never been. It has been about IC conflict and emotion. I said earlier that actual OOC abuse makes itself known very quickly, while IC stuff stays in its little playground.

Everyone will slip up and twist the knife a little deeper on occasion, because we're human. That's where the trust and forgiveness come in.

Since I'm on a roll of posting, I received this comment by an anonymous person, and promised to put it up here, with a reply:


Let's start with the last part first: yes, this thread got unpleasant fast. The mod team is frustrated. Maybe "jerk" is a bad opening word choice, but I was the one who trusted Causality to put the post up in the first place, and I still stand by his post. You could argue that it should have been toned down, but it certainly got your attention and created discussion. And getting that attention and creating that discussion was necessary.



Continuing on.

As far as "characters who always replied in negative tones" goes, it's not as simple as "don't do it". Because there is a lot of context that might be behind that. If one character has reasons to be an ass to another, it's unreasonable to expect that character to let up. A player should not be using all of their alts to gang up on another player. That is OOC abuse. I like to think that we have been clear that we are not arguing for that. If all of a player's characters have IC reason to pile up on one character, it obviously complicates things. In part it might require that one character's player to look at that character. I would also recommend that that the other player look at their characters, and see if they're too similar, or if there's context for it. As I said, it's not a simple situation, but we do not expect one player to pile their characters onto another player's.

If you see OOC abuse, talk with the mods. It's that simple.

Fake arguments about space: I agree. We're not demanding that players post in threads they're not going to enjoy. CDN has to be fun for everybody. The anonymous player, I should point out, has a novel solution for this problem: they create and join threads that interest them. If you feel that the current collection of threads is no fun, by all means create a new one. Or, if it's fitting the character and their interests, try to derail another. Or send Presslink news stories that you'd like to see. This is where the effort and "create compelling content" comes in.

Alright, I didn't want to get involved in this, since I hate OOC drama with a passion, but I thought I should drop in my two cents. After all, both sides of the argument have a point here.

First off, yes, the extranet portion of the site needs more discussion and disagreement. However, I don't think the issue is due to characters not having differing opinions, per se, but more to do with a lack of topics to have differing opinions about. I can only speak for myself here, but there's a reason I don't post too much, and it's nothing to do with characters. It's because either I personally am not interested in a topic (eg. the slew of sex threads), I don't have the time to do extended research (eg. military shit or previous CDN world-building) for a post that people will undoubtedly ignore (happens a lot, by the way), or because I can't think of a reason for my characters to care about a topic.

Now, understand that I'm not saying this is the mods' (or any other specific people, for that matter) fault. I'm saying that, instead of pushing people to make more 'jerks' - a bad choice of phrase in of itself, since nice characters are perfectly capable of having differing opinions and fuelling debate just as well as any 'jerk' - maybe we should be pushing people to write more news articles and come up with interesting issues to debate.

Also, I'd like to note that there's nothing wrong with light, fluffy RP threads that just have characters hanging out and being friends. Not everything has to be a massive conflict, and some players (like myself) don't often have time for big overarching story-lines. Or they just might not be a fan of that sort of RP, and surely that's fine too. CDN started out as a board for people to RP as the average folk of the Mass Effect universe - with that in mind, surely there is a place for slice-of-life threads that are just people talking. Y'know, like real people do. After all, no one is forcing anybody to read those threads, so as long as the players themselves are having fun, I don't see the issue.

On the OOC vs. IC bullying issue: well, I'm probably not qualified to have an opinion on this, since I keep OOC interaction to a minimum, but I think it needs to be considered from two viewpoints - the experienced player and the newbie. As an experienced player, one should assume that any insults are IC-only. I don't really know any of you people - for all I know, you could be insulting me OOC with some of your IC insults - but it's easier to assume that everything is just IC.

However, someone new to RP isn't necessarily going to know that a character's opinions don't always reflect the player's opinions. I know that, when I was new, I got quite upset when people dismissed my character's opinions as 'stupid'. I know now that that was probably just an IC dismissal, but it can be quite easy to take it as meaning that you're a bad player and shouldn't be playing with the big boys because they're just so much better than you and you're just worthless and not adding anything. This is the reason why I always append an OOC note when Vesh has a go at a new player - one who might not know that that's not at all what I think of them, just what Vesh thinks of their character.

On a unrelated note, I don't like the division of 'good players' and 'bad players' that some people are making in this thread. I don't know which group I fall into - I'd like to think I was decent, though others would probably disagree - but categorising people like that sets a bad precedent. Yes, some writers are better than others. It's inevitable. However, calling some people good writers and other people bad writers, even without naming names, suggests that only good players can play with good players, and that bad players should get out because they're just polluting the boards with their shit. I'll be the first to admit that I'm probably reading too much into that, but I remember a time when CDN was really inclusive and welcoming even to people who really struggled with their writing. Of course, that was just on the boards - maybe you (generic you, not singling anyone out) were mercilessly slagging them off on IRC, I don't know - but you see my point.

In conclusion: yes, I'm less interested in CDN than I used to be. But that's not due to there being too many characters being nice and agreeing with each other, or 'bad writers'. It's due to there being very few topics I or my characters care about to discuss, and a lack of interest from other people in any open threads I set up. Open threads are how characters meet, and act as the springboard for further IC interaction - particularly when you're like me and don't want to deal with the inevitable drama that seems to arise from OOC interaction.

So, in short, my personal, uneducated opinion is that this board doesn't need more 'jerks', or even less 'hugboxers'. It needs more open threads and more interesting topics of discussion. Maybe then people would start posting 'interesting' (really rather subjective, but whatever) stuff. I'm not telling you to fix it with no effort on my part - I've tried to do my bit. I set up the OHO with A_C, set up an open thread, and I sent in a news story to Presslink a week or so ago. Not everyone's going to want to do all those things - I was scared to do serious world-building like with the OHO until very recently, setting up open threads can be daunting, and news stories can be hard to write. So I don't want anyone to feel pressured into doing that, by me or anyone else. Otherwise, CDN starts feeling more like a chore than anything fun. It'll only take a few people to post these things, and I know there are people out there who enjoy writing that stuff. So let's have more of that instead of pressuring people to change their characters, yes?

I'm not going to be particularly...I don't know well written here and probably not as involved as some others but there are a few things I just really feel like I need to say.

No it's actually not considering that how just blatantly hypocritical you've been in this thread alone. I mean I'm sorry (okay that's probably not entirely true but I still don't like saying stuff like this) but you've been slinging shit at me, personally, OOC, and at my characters in virtually every post you've made so far.

I don't care for it. I really, legitimately don't.

Particularly when you decry dictating terms and being called passive aggressive in one breath and then issue ultimatums and are just incredibly backhanded the next.

I feel like you missed my point here, either accidentally or intentionally, which is that regardless of my OOC views (whether they mesh with what I'm saying IC or not) I do genuinely try to make sure that my posts have actual arguments and points in them. That I'm not just calling someone an idiot because I can but that I'm contributing something, some idea or concept that other people can bat back to me or argue against. They have no obligation to actually do so but it's there if they feel so inclined.

And, frankly, it's part of why I genuinely enjoy playing Sandy: he speaks his mind. He's not shy about holding opinions or letting other people know exactly what he thinks of them. Believe me I can understand if he's not everyone's cup of tea (hazards of playing an asshole) but I still feel more than a little uncomfortable when everything I do as him is viewed as basically "obscene crap". A bit irrational on my part but there you go.

...Except it's very much not and there's no reason to take it like it is. There are people I like OOC whose characters I don't always care for IC, there are people I like IC who I don't exactly get along well with OOC, there are people I dislike both on the boards and off and people who I thoroughly enjoy talking to both IC and in person. It's complicated because social interactions are complicated things but the point (as vague and rambling as it may be) is that, again, I don't particularly care to have all that boiled down to me bullying some hypothetical guy to get my jollies.

I'm sorry, this is crass and probably a bit melodramatic but

who the hell died and made you mod?

FourEyes, I've basically said my piece - what can I say, I don't really have the energy for this anymore - but I am going to point out one thing.


Now, those are strictly your replies to me, and both of them can be charitably described as... impolite. They're certainly not the only examples I could use, but I'm trying to keep this small-scale rather than pulling things from every post you've made in this thread to make my point, which is this:


This is not arguing in good faith. This is not productive, this is not helpful. This is the problem. With this statement you effectively acknowledge that you're bending the truth to defend yourself, rather than acknowledging that other people don't perceive your actions the same way you do. Meanwhile, at the mere use of the word 'bully', you get agitated.


If he is, it's only because you keep singling him out. It was singling him out that started this whole mess, and now that it's come to a head you're not even discussing it truthfully, by your own admission. From my perspective, Sandman isn't the poster boy for this problem - you are.

Point of fact:

Overlord, I never did wish for anyone to slow down or dumb down. I personally never had a problem with my character getting cut down to size, it's the name of the game. And yes, I did learn from it, but I also have to remember that if I come up with a good argument I have to always tell myself, is this something I would say IC, if so great, game on. But if it isn't, then it's not a discussion for me IC, and again, it has nothing to do with anyone being excessively rude, 'too good' or any of the other reasons you mentioned. And I do play a very taciturn character, his arguments are very brief. If you're looking for a flame war from my character Snow, my apologies but it's not going to happen.

The point of the link was actually the argument between the non insulting members, which was just as galvanizing than the people throwing insults. It was implied earlier that you need to be a jerk to create appropriate conflict, but I think we're past that anyway.

Hey, if someone cries wolf the first time his character gets badmouthed, I agree that we should explain to him that it's probably nothing personal.
What we're talking about here is people doing it for months over several alts. That's abuse, you said so yourself. The question is, what do we do about it?


Well first of all Taleeze explained very well why some people just don't have the time or the inclination to always offer enormous debate, so I hope we're past calling them those who don't have it in them "bad players".
There was the case of the debates being poisoned by ooc rivalry, I think people need to stop that.
And then there is just the idea that maybe there aren't enough active posters and threads around anymore. Well then everyone invested in the conflict part of the boards have to pitch in. I saw you're posting again Harrad. It's good.


For the record I was using that term as a tongue in cheek way to designate my side of the issue. I think it's a silly term that implies that nice players are boring (by its original definition your character's a hugboxer for the record). If you've read any of my posts in debate threads you'll notice that I like a good debate.


There are, however, people who really don't like conflict at all, and that's their playstyle, and they have every right to use this service too, until you guys add a "don't be always nice" rule. I think you shouldn't.

Ho yeah, and in an idea world the offended party would send a PM saying "dude, you've been pouncing a little too hard these past few weeks, I'm getting uncomfortable with it", and the other would say "ho sorry, not my intent, I'll lay off for a while with the insults and stuff".


Well obviously I didn't agree with it, but at least I think we're isolating the actual problems. He gave us a starting point.

I agree, but if the second gets too uncomfortable I think the first one should just go into "ignore" or "easy" mode. You can't force other people to play with you, you won't throw a ball at a guy's head when he just told you he's up for a game.

I'm sorry Harrad, I really am, but I'm not sure all of us would be comfortable with that. Both parties choosing a mediator they both trust however could be a good way to solve the matter.

@Average Citizen : Loved your post. Especially the division "good player" and "bad player" that bugged me too. I think we all need to agree that not all of us play the same way. To me you can recognize a bad player when he's really making everyone uncomfortable, but if other people enjoy what he's doing, well he might just be doing something right.
Doesn't mean there shouldn't be feedback about what we feel is not strong enough (no bullying, no didacting, feedback).

@Sandman

I'm sorry I upset you Sandman. I messed up when I named you. It was a stupid mistake, but I felt like I needed to quote the case I was familiar with and I felt showed the problem as its core. So I apologize, and I hope maybe at some point we could get to chat in a private channel with someone we both trust and try to clear the air. I'm sure it can be done. None of it was sarcasm.

I'm not seeing it honestly. How someone can argue "You're an idiot.", pull out an IQ test? I'm not seeing it, honestly. But maybe others do, so I think if someone tells you they're uncomfortable with those, you may just omit them in your next post and save them for the people who enjoy them.


Nobody! I'm just saying how I feel and how other people I know feel, not rewriting the CDN rules, don't worry.

A point I think bears repeating : Nobody's asking the jerk characters to stop being jerks. The point is to respect the way other people play. If someone is uncomfortable with being constantly insulted IC (even if it's not actually meant by the author ooc), we should discuss it first but respect that. If after some mediation they're still not cool with it, we have to respect that. That doesn't make them bad players. It doesn't mean they spoil the fun of the people who like to play it rough, since they can still do it with the people who are comfortable with it.
Espiza complained that not playing it rough enough drove good writers away and it may be true, but I'm pretty sure playing too rough without caring if the person on the other end was ok with it drove a whole lot of good writers away too. There should be some middle ground.

Talk to the mods. This has been the site's policy since it began. It's not complicated.


Which is a problem this thread has been addressing. But you cannot mistake "active" with "worth reading". YouTube comments are active too.


I'm highlighting this line just so that no-one else misses it.


"Conflict" is a broad word in fiction and means many things. It is also a requisite in fiction. If a post is not creating or adding to the conflict- whatever kind of conflict it is and in whatever way - then it is useless. The people whose "playstyles" avoid conflict in all its shapes and forms either need to start engaging, or stop posting. We've banned players for *munches popcorn* posts in the past.


No. If two players cannot resolve their differences between themselves, then it is up to the mods to solve the problem. This is because the problem becomes a board problem. This is because only the mods have the power to suspend or ban characters or players. This is because as far as the board is concerned, what the mods say goes. You might think you're solving something by bringing in a third party, but there is nothing binding behind it. There is nothing enforceable. There is no post on the Mainframe that says what the decision has been. This is why we have moderators in the first place.


If the content is IC, rule-abiding, sensible in context, and not triggering/problematic for RL reasons, then the onus is on the offended player to find a solution, not for everyone else to tone it down for them. Period.


If the numbers were close, then perhaps you'd have a point. They're not. Not remotely. Which is why this thread was created in the first place.

Here's my two cents about the topic(s).

1. Causalities, original premise has been validated by this thread itself. A valid, (somewhat incendiary topic,) combined with people who have an outspoken view about said topic and the refusal to 'give in' or relent their arguments, make this thread interesting. We had these kind of threads in the early days, frankly the board was better for it.
2. On the subject of people having OOC emotions (whatever they might be,) caused by IC remarks by other characters. This can happen, I have yet to hear about people who are totally and permanently emotionally detached from all their characters. The thing is you should not try to avoid, repress or ignore it. Instead, use it in the same manner as method actor uses real emotions to enhance his performance. Use it as a guide on how your character would feel. Those emotions are not a weight dragging you down, they are a boon that can make you far better. But there's a big caveat; let them guide you but not lead you, let them be and keep them in mind but don't let them overwhelm you. You should always be in control.
3. OOC bullying, just don't. Be very careful with giving unsolicited advice on character development, behavior or anything else related. It is not your character and your advice might not be appreciated and might come over as insulting, or worse. The obvious exception is of course if you believe a certain character is (close to) violating the site's rules. Politely pointing that out in private is worthwhile, but even then you should just point it out, not try and force them to change it. The only people who can force a post/character/story change are the mods and administrator.

Finally, since sex threads are mentioned once again, I still stand by what I said then; sex as a subject of a thread is to be avoided. Sex happening in a thread (within the limits of the PG13 rating,) is something acceptable, IF IT MAKES SENSE.

I have no idea how relevant any of this is, but I thought I'd write down whatever comes into my head on the topic, if only to explain my own personal approach.

Conflict comes in many forms, of course, as some of the others have noted. My characters are all rather minor players, and obviously my "flagship" character is ridiculously nice (he's basically a hanar puppy). And even the most confrontational of the three (my elcor) doesn't get involved in sustained disagreements. They're all rather quiet, really. WavesHaveBroken is friendly and enthusiastic to a fault, Bitterskin is well-meaning if rather out-of-touch, and even SlowAndSteady is disdainful and proud rather than confrontational. In fact, all my characters are a bit disassociated from the cut-and-thrust, they're not very dynamic. That doesn't mean there isn't conflict, but I like to think of it as implicit conflict. Rather than overt disagreement with others, it's more about conflict between their desires to live inside their own comfortable fantasies and the necessity of confronting the harsher realities they're avoiding (be they related to the galaxy at large or to their own personal flaws). In a sense, lack of participation is part of what makes them tick, which I acknowledge doesn't quite work when it comes to a medium that relies on dynamic interaction; it works for me writing them, but doesn't exactly provide that immediate hook to newcomers or lurkers. So I wouldn't suggest for a minute that this way is something to emulate, only that it works for me.

Still, I like to think there's conflict there, even if it isn't overtly apparent. WavesHaveBroken can't maintain his clueless disassociation from the rough galaxy he's living in forever, and he's oblivious to some of the more disturbing truths about people he associates with. Bitterskin will get more and more frustrated over his loneliness and lack of purpose and direction, wanting to get involved with something but too apathetic and anti-social to do so, wanting to be a part of CDN but constantly distancing himself from everyone else. SlowAndSteady is getting himself into something he won't be able to get out of as easily as he thinks, and pretty much consistently fails to live up to the elcor ideals he lectures others about. They're going to have to (and to an extent this has already started) face up to themselves and their tendency to live in bubbles. These aren't major arcs or anything particularly striking, of course, and I certainly acknowledge that it doesn't provide the dynamic cut-and-thrust that's being discussed here as important to generating interest, but I try to give the sense that there are evolving people under there, and that there are inevitable tensions between each of them and the community of beings around them. I don't know if I succeed at all, but I'm having a lot of fun. Whether it's engaging to anyone else is a different matter, of course.

Again, this is just my approach. I agree entirely that strongly committed, opinionated characters who generate more overt conflict are essential to making this place dynamic and interesting, but there are also ways to find your own niche within the CDN world if that sort of thing isn't for you. You can try and generate conflict without having lengthy IC arguments if you're not comfortable with things getting heated. We just need to find our niche, and ensure we're not holding anyone back from writing the dynamic drama-fuelling characters they want to write. :)

And this can be hard, of course. Hence our disagreements here. I'm not trying to offer solutions or argue for and against any of what's being said (which to some of you might be illustrative of the problem ;)), I just thought I'd try and discuss my own approach.

It's surreal how the lessons we teach at leadership camps can be so immediately applicable.
This cannot be restated enough. There have been a dozen threads and dozens of posts in the past week between the board's IC component, and practically none of them have seen as much passion or been as interesting to read as this one. By stubbornly insisting on your point of view, by taking a stand, by deconstructing an argument quote-by-quote, by putting your money where your mouth is, you have accidentally written a far more engaging thread or debate than some of the past five IC news articles combined. Every impassioned denial or jab or defense you make ultimately favours the premise and message of this very thread - that it's not hard to make an interesting or engaging discussion, and how much discussion benefits when it's framed around a conflict of interests or opinions.

Anyone who's taken a Grade 8 English course can probably tell you that conflict takes many forms, and that conflict does not inherently necessitate one or more 'mean' people - no one is saying you need to play an 'asshole', and no one is saying 'assholes' are necessarily more interesting, so stop insinuating it's the case. It's not. It was never the case. We have explicitly noted it. It's disingenuous to continue that line of argument because there is no argument to be had in that regard.

If you're insulted, if you're personally threatened by a character's rhetoric and how they present it, nine times out of ten it is entirely your fault and your fault alone. Do not put responsibility for your ego and your need to soothe it on the other party; on a third party. And this is when you step back and reflect on yourself a bit, because you continue to blatantly ignore everything we have been saying, because you fail to acknowledge that we trust that almost everyone on CDN argues in good faith. That you expect the worst intentions from someone by a character they play and the tone or choice of words they choose to use with that character is a problem that you need to deal with.

And hey, if your really has pride taken a hit, if you're angry, then GET ANGRY. Fucking USE IT. Harness it. Don't run for cover and tell someone to dumb their arguments down. This is what I'm doing right now. A discussion without passion is not a discussion worth having. It's where I maybe disagree a tad with some people over how much you should invest yourself into a pretend space alien (something we should still always remember to frame our roles as), because anything is better than a grey, pointless, robotic discussion where people say the same things they always say in every thread. It is my worst nightmare. It is what is happening right now. It's why conflict is so important - political conflict, personal conflict, it doesn't matter, it forces people to challenge themselves, challenge others, challenge their creativity, and create an environment that encourages others to do the same.

To some others, specifically, who may feel intimidated by 'heavy' discussion, I'm going to tell you guys a... short story, I guess. About why I joined CDN, and why I stayed, and why I'm maybe more in the background as of late. I found the front page first, and found the forum about five minutes later. The latest news article at the time was regarding Taetrus (and you'll forgive me if I find it unclear what, specifically, it was about), and the character that I felt drawn to playing through the atmosphere and level of discussion I immediately found myself entrenched in, was a turian loyalist. A very loyal one. It was not particularly well thought out. It was not particularly immutable. It was a means, for me, to involve myself, through my character, in a series of discussions over existing conflicts in the Mass Effect universe. I had even pinned my character in as isolated an environment as possible to facilitate and justify this. But I was not great at it. I made mistakes.

I was frequently intimidated by some veterans among the many discussions, veterans who had been considering, weighing, and presenting their positions for many months before I had entered the discussion, felt entirely overwhelmed by the pace and level of the discussion, felt out of place and frequently found it difficult to find anything to latch onto. But getting involved was a joy all the same. I got put into positions where I'd need to seriously consider a line of argument, seek flaws, and maybe if I couldn't do either, bluster enough that it looked like I did. I won some, I lost some, but I never let it discourage me. And I got better. I learned my strengths in a discussion, I learned my weaknesses, I learned how to pick my battles and I knew how to make the most off of an opportunity. And yeah, my character got mean. Because it was the easiest way to provoke a response from people.

Events as of late have had me take a step back from my character - at least, SteelUnifier - because the discussion began to suffer and because I felt that the character no longer had an interesting conflict to pursue or discuss. She could certainly be 'mean' still, maybe even witty (and certainly crass), but it was no longer in service to a conflict. Which feeds back into a point that's been made constantly, in that assholes are not inherently interesting. But the fact of the matter is that my subtler aims to make that discussion that I'd found so interesting have been foiled by an environment that seeks to discourage that, I stopped feeling challenged, or found myself continually humoured by one or two of the exact same people. Everyone else either seemed entirely disinterested in putting themselves out there or were actively discouraging to the conversation entirely.

A few days ago, being as I've spent the past week playing staff at a local leadership camp, we asked our campers about what it means to challenge yourself. To know that you might fail, but to try anyways. To take a few steps out of your comfort zone and try something different. Something new. It's how you better yourself. To challenge themselves. To take a leap of faith. And to keep taking them. You can't develop or grow if you continue to hide in that comfort zone, and you won't get better at arguing or making a position if you don't ever try.

Challenge is what human experience is about. It's why we play sports. Play games. Go to school. It's what engenders innovation and inspires creativity. It's what can provoke the best and the worst out of people. It's what drives evolution in all of its' definitions. Something that is never challenged by their environment is stagnated by their environment, and is ultimately ruined by their environment. Why do games exist at all, if not for some element of challenge or gratification? Why didn't we just create a green button that says 'YOU WIN' whenever you tap it? Life is defined by failure just as much as success. Don't be afraid of it. Embrace it. People make mistakes, and it's okay to feel intimidated or feel like you're about to bite off more than you can chew - I've been there, and I'm sure every single person you're afraid to argue with has been, too (even if it hasn't necessarily been on the boards) - but you won't even go that far if you're just too afraid to try.

Just some food for thought.