![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Archmagus Blood, Fire, and Steel Legionnaires Forever |
how the fuck shit like this makes sense.
From MercNet btw. E_A_R3323You know, I've really got to say that going pirate is one of the worst, absolute worst, things a mercenary can do outside of warcrimes tier stuff. For one it helps build up this image that we're all a bunch of barely restrained psychos (with guns) who go illegal the first chance we get. For two it's just kinda bad. Like, I'm not a shiningknight, I don't mind taking some of the grosser, less glamorous, or shady stuff exactly but robbing people, especially now is pretty low. And that's not even getting into some of the other shit pirates do (lot of which does edge up into warcrimes tier, or what they would be called if they were done anywhere else).
And don't get me started on privateers. Basically just pirates with a nicer name and a government check. Actually they're kinda worse really because they're doing it all more for the easy ride than because they or their crew need it. Reason I'm even asking you all is 'cause some of you aren't completely fucktarded and the thread got locked 'bout an hour ago after it started tanking the servers after that post. So uh yeah. Anybody gonna take a crack at this? ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Mekan of Omega |
![]() excellent points all around, gentlemen Shamelessly plugging my blog. Click [here]. Currently on hiatus. [Mekan Computer Security], now based on scenic |
![]() ![]() ![]() RedOut |
Archmagus wrote:
Which is probably what you're saying too but uh a. I'm hungover and b. not exactly a fucking scholar at this either.
It's semantics, basically. Pirates start political and get increasingly corporate as they become more successful and widen their profit margins, mercs start corporate and get increasingly political as they become more successful and gain territory and gear. |
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RedOut wrote:It's semantics, basically. Pirates start political and get increasingly corporate as they become more successful and widen their profit margins, mercs start corporate and get increasingly political as they become more successful and gain territory and gear. Ooooooooh. Kay kay got it.See now? That makes fucking sense and uh, says it better than I was saying it. ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Calypso Captain of the Faruq. Leader of the Damavand Corsairs. |
Mekan of Omega wrote: Anyways, my actual take on the Pirates vs. Mercs thing: Pirates are (pretty much without exception) psychopaths who got into the piracy gig for shits and giggles. Profit is a secondary concern. Think of who we're talking about: The likes of the late Velor Vedevix and such.
Yes, because my idea of fun is sitting in a shipping lane for days on end waiting for an unescorted ship to pass by. Then again, people do go fishing in real life for a hobby, which I never got, so I dunno. RedOut wrote:Pirates are, by and large, beholden to their captains, and pirate crews (Especially in large flotillas or fleets) are effectively a government, often with civilians and territory.
Archamgus wrote: that though. I mean plenty of people have said the same kinda shit about merc groups too. 'Specially the Three.
You hold territory, have laws, take taxes (Well, effectively take taxes), have turf wars to gain resources and have a centralized government (via a bureaucracy and corporate structure). You...basically are. This guy gets it. Pirates aren't the anarchist psychopaths people get the idea of. We're as professional as any merc group, sometimes even more so. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Mekan of Omega |
Dammit, people, stop making me see pirates in a sympathetic light. I need a reason to not take their money, and you guys are not helping.
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Calypso Captain of the Faruq. Leader of the Damavand Corsairs. |
Mekan of Omega wrote:Dammit, people, stop making me see pirates in a sympathetic light. I need a reason to not take their money, and you guys are not helping.
Why? Pirates keep the Terminus and Abyss economies flowing with business. We sell salvage to manufacturers to use in new construction. We sell dismounted ship equipment to second hand dealers, which lowers the price of shipfaring business and allowing more startups to stabilize their financial situation. We use the services of nearby stations. We are not "draining" the economy of a specific region by operating. We simply result in a redistribution. In the long run, professional pirating fleets are only a threat to a very particular group of people, that is, the companies that ship materials and personnel through that region of space without paying a tithe to the fleet. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Mekan of Omega |
I guess it's the whole 'targeting civilians' thing? I don't know. I figure if a guy's specifically meant to shoot back if you're doing a thing, it's not really a problem? You guys have made some pretty convincing arguments.
Fuckin' morality. You people have got to stop mindfucking me like this. Shamelessly plugging my blog. Click [here]. Currently on hiatus. [Mekan Computer Security], now based on scenic |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Calypso Captain of the Faruq. Leader of the Damavand Corsairs. |
"Targeting" implies we kill non-combatants. Which is personally untrue. It's an unprofessional practice that causes a distrust when negotiating with another corporation. If a "civilian" is operating a craft through that region of space and gets boarded, best case scenario we take the cargo and leave them. Worst case scenario usually would be removing them from the ship if we plan to take the whole thing and negotiate for their transport back to a nearby station.
Really we'd only kill someone if they declare themself a combatant by firing upon us. Which would be monumentally stupid given they're almost always outnumbered, outgunned, and will never get the chance to actually hurt someone with their Kinetic Barriers up. |
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RedOut wrote:Because no-one's an inherently bad person (Well, almost no-one. you get the occasional exception). Everyone is trying to do right by someone or something.
Actually, you're right. That's my bad for screwing things up. What I meant to say was that the people who do something for money aren't inherently any better than the ones who are doing it for fun. No matter what the reason was behind the action, a person's still doing it. It's why I don't try to call out Dwick for donating to charity just because he's doing it for tax reasons. The charities are getting the money either way. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Mekan of Omega |
Calypso wrote:"Targeting" implies we kill non-combatants.
Well...isn't that what pirates do? Kill people and take their stuff? That's the foundation of the whole thing, right? Which is personally untrue. It's an unprofessional practice that causes a distrust when negotiating with another corporation. If a "civilian" is operating a craft through that region of space and gets boarded, best case scenario we take the cargo and leave them. Worst case scenario usually would be removing them from the ship if we plan to take the whole thing and negotiate for their transport back to a nearby station.
So, are there like rules? Common law? Some kind of pirate's code? What? I can see how it'd make sense, considering a lot of mercs take a similar angle with a lot of their contracts, but...y'know. Come on. Pirates. Keep in mind, all of this is news to me. It makes sense, but this is the first I've ever heard of anything like it. Really we'd only kill someone if they declare themself a combatant by firing upon us. Which would be monumentally stupid given they're almost always outnumbered, outgunned, and will never get the chance to actually hurt someone with their Kinetic Barriers up.
Wait, for real? Seriously? Shamelessly plugging my blog. Click [here]. Currently on hiatus. [Mekan Computer Security], now based on scenic |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Calypso Captain of the Faruq. Leader of the Damavand Corsairs. |
Mekan of Omega wrote:
Calypso wrote:"Targeting" implies we kill non-combatants.
Well...isn't that what pirates do? Kill people and take their stuff? That's the foundation of the whole thing, right? The latter, yes. The former is only if they find their stuff valuable enough to lose their life over. I can guarantee you if I look at my logbook, around half of my raids do not end in a casualty. Which is personally untrue. It's an unprofessional practice that causes a distrust when negotiating with another corporation. If a "civilian" is operating a craft through that region of space and gets boarded, best case scenario we take the cargo and leave them. Worst case scenario usually would be removing them from the ship if we plan to take the whole thing and negotiate for their transport back to a nearby station.
Mekan of Omega wrote:So, are there like rules? Common law? Some kind of pirate's code? What? I can see how it'd make sense, considering a lot of mercs take a similar angle with a lot of their contracts, but...y'know. Come on. Pirates.
Not a common law, rather certain pirate fleets take certain actions that build a certain reputation. The more ruthless ones will, of course, kill, rape, and pillage anything they find, but they tend not to last very long as the reputation they build instigates a concerted effort by nearly everyone in the sector of space to hunt them down and drive them out, because they are a threat to anyone they encounter. The smarter ones, however, will run it as any other business. There will be negotiations, tax requests, whitelisting for those who pay their tithe, a procedure for how much to take from what ships (Up to and including the ship itself) and generally being a non-nuisance when it can be afforded. Mekan of Omega wrote:Keep in mind, all of this is news to me. It makes sense, but this is the first I've ever heard of anything like it.
As I've said, pirates have gained an unfortunate reputation in the eyes of the ignorant through vids that they are all unforgiving, ruthless, killers. Really we'd only kill someone if they declare themself a combatant by firing upon us. Which would be monumentally stupid given they're almost always outnumbered, outgunned, and will never get the chance to actually hurt someone with their Kinetic Barriers up.
Mekan of Omega wrote: Wait, for real? Seriously?
Of course, there will be many times when they will fight back. Escort ships for example, are obligated to fend off pirate raiders and make up a large percentage of the uncooperative scenarios I've had to deal with. In an unfortunate circumstance, their ship could be destroyed in the struggle. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Mekan of Omega |
Huh.
Guess I was legitimately mistaken. Apologies to everyone and anyone. on that note What I meant to say was that the people who do something for money aren't inherently any better than the ones who are doing it for fun. No matter what the reason was behind the action, a person's still doing it. It's why I don't try to call out Dwick for donating to charity just because he's doing it for tax reasons. The charities are getting the money either way.
How about the guys who re-enlist in the turian military after a mandatory stint, Harrad? What separates them from a merc, since they're obviously making it their chosen career, which in turn = profit for them? They're still shooting people for a living. Honest question, this wasn't meant to go anywhere insulting, I promise. Shamelessly plugging my blog. Click [here]. Currently on hiatus. [Mekan Computer Security], now based on scenic |
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Mekan of Omega wrote:How about the guys who re-enlist in the turian military after a mandatory stint, Harrad?
The entire Hierarchy is the military. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Mekan of Omega |
I repeat the question. Like, if someone doesn't leave for T-Space or something, and sticks with it - what then?
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Vigilance Ever vigilant, for they are watching. |
Harrad_01 wrote:
Mekan of Omega wrote:How about the guys who re-enlist in the turian military after a mandatory stint, Harrad?
The entire Hierarchy is the military. what. OK that would make us the best military in the galaxy. We'd beat the geth at military-to-civvie ratios. It's been a while since my term but if I remember correctly... it's a mandatory training starting at one's fifteenth birthday (or the boot-camp closest to it; if you turn 15 the day after camp starts, you go into the next one in... I think it's about three months) and ending a year (more for OCS but I never went there) later, ergo every turian is a qualified soldier by sixteen. Almost. There are always the odd few who don't attend. The ones who don't even turn up are basically first tier, same rights as a volus on a turian world. Then the ones who wash out 'cause of medical requirements ([Translator error: did you mean 'asthma'?], missing limbs, heart problems), they're better than a volus but not quite citizen. You get through, congrats, you're a turian citizen. Now a fair few drop out right here. Most continue, though, and then your four years starts. Boom, four years later, you've done your term and you're now a few tiers higher. Volus and whatnot actually become citizens here, if they make it this far (which they won't). Now you can do another four years (making you... about 24) which is usually a really long shore leave, guarding military camps. Nothing too exerting. Or, instead, you can re-up, which basically gives you another two years. That's half a standard term. Re-ups are usually the same sort of job; mine were, at least. End of that, you're probably doing quite well, got yourself a nice rank. More quit here, most stay on 'til about 30 or so. You keep doing more and more and more until you quit or die. Or you're dishonourably discharged, but no-one talks about those guys. Ever. So basically: Almost all turians have military training. Most have at least four years experience, many have more than four. Now say you retire (with that nice big tier-11 pension you've always wanted). This point, you're still in for another term (four or two depending on what you just did), in the Reserves (most quit round 30: 15 + training + three full terms and a re-up, mine was, but some people do it differently). The Reserves are the guys who hang around on Palaven and do nothing (or they used to; the Reaper War kind of woke them up, no offense to all you reservers out there). After you've done your Reserves, you're officially FREE TO GO! Past this, they generally don't call you up and make you do more, you've done your duty to the Hierarchy and you can go get a life now, etc, etc, etc. Or you get a crippling injury and they throw you in the support teams for a bit and then remove you entirely with a terrible fake limb. But that's another story entirely. So, to conclude Almost the entire Hierarchy can shoot a gun and take cover. Almost all of those have done at least four years, and have been at one point military. Most of those have done eight, many of those twelve, fourteen. Not every turian is Hierarchy military, but almost all of the ones who aren't used to be. Doesn't mean they could always be called up to fight, though. But it's been some forty-five years since I signed up so they've probably rejigged it a bit. Oh and to answer your original question, I think the reasons do matter - it's better to do something for 'nice' reasons rather than for money and drugs and great sex - even if the results are the same. More honourable that way, I guess. C-Sec mail [here], personal [here], FEMES [here]. Is that all? Can I go? |
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Vigilance wrote:what.
Do I really have to explain this in detail? To another turian? I didn't even do that good in civics. Did you ever spend any time on Earth after the War? Did you know that most Human governments have separate police forces? Did you know that the Alliance engineers don't also build everything? That medical units serve only their platoons? Do I have to remind you that there's no such thing as a civilian? Mekan is asking "what happens to the people that choose to exile themselves from everything they've known. It's a ridiculous question, and I can't believe I have to explain that to someone who was close enough to the front to get 2Q'd. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Mekan of Omega |
I'm asking abou-
no, fuck it. It's clear I'm not gonna talk you into hiding your 'all mercenaries are EVIL' hate-boner. Shamelessly plugging my blog. Click [here]. Currently on hiatus. [Mekan Computer Security], now based on scenic |
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Vigilance wrote:
Almost the entire Hierarchy can shoot a gun and take cover.
Almost all of those have done at least four years, and have been at one point military. Most of those have done eight, many of those twelve, fourteen. Not every turian is Hierarchy military, but almost all of the ones who aren't used to be. Doesn't mean they could always be called up to fight, though. A. What the fuck does this have to do with anything? B. I'm fucking Terminus/Frontier and I know more about the Hierarchy than you. That is sad. ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() RedOut |
Harrad_01 wrote:
Mekan is asking "what happens to the people that choose to exile themselves from everything they've known. It's a ridiculous question, and I can't believe I have to explain that to someone who was close enough to the front to get 2Q'd. That is not what he's asking. Mekan of Omega wrote:
How about the guys who re-enlist in the turian military after a mandatory stint, Harrad? What separates them from a merc, since they're obviously making it their chosen career, which in turn = profit for them? They're still shooting people for a living.
Honest question, this wasn't meant to go anywhere insulting, I promise. This is what he's asking. He's basically asking 'what separates a hierarchy soldier from a mercenary'. The answer's basically 'hierarchy citizens are raised and socially indoctrinated from birth to desire join and remain in the hierarchy, despite being blatantly suboptimal'. Especially in the modern galaxy with the entire 'no pay and mediocre QoL' thing. |
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Ahahahahahahaha.
No. Mercenaries are a grey area wherein they can equally be hired for good or bad things, but all I can say on this matter is fuck pirates. You can argue the political and economical semantics to me until I'm old and decrepit but I will actively refuse to care. Pirates, by definition, steal other people's shit. They make the ultimate statement that they think they deserve your shit more than you, the person who worked for it. They prey on the weak and the defenseless. They either make themselves willfully ignorant of the consequences of their actions, or simply don't care. Zero empathy or willful ignorance of the harm you're causing. Sounds like a fucking glorious career doesn't it? |